Dr. Jesse Reimink: you made such a compelling case for it too. you gotta do is fly me there, provide me accommodation, and provide me free beer, and I'll just do it for you. I mean, how compelling was that? I mean, come on.

Chris Bolhuis: I don't understand, but for now my stump grinding has come to a halt, but I will, I will re start my skills coming up in the fall and winter this year because we're going to cut down a bunch more trees and so I'll have to [00:01:00] get them out of there too. So yeah, we have, we have a lot more work to do.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: 2024 version of Chris's stump grinding is gonna be much more successful, I think. Cause you, you have honed your skills.

Chris Bolhuis: I continue to get better. Yes, that is correct.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Well, excellent. Well,

Chris Bolhuis: How about you? What's new with you?

Dr. Jesse Reimink: oh man, well, we're in the throes of the semester getting, getting things going here.

So, you know, we're back at it, back at it here in Pennsylvania.

Chris Bolhuis: yeah, we are here in Michigan. We are in full swing also, and it feels good.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah. Yeah. [00:01:30] It's good. It's a, it's a good time. Fall is beautiful. I do, I do love the, when it starts to, it gets, it gets, um, especially in Eastern Pennsylvania, it gets brutally hot in the month of August. And so it's nice to have a little cooler, uh, cooler temperatures. So anyway.

Chris Bolhuis: Yeah. There's something about the smell of fall. I love it. Fall's one of my

Dr. Jesse Reimink: It's like the sulfur in, uh, Yellowstone. You go outside and go, ah, I'm home.

Chris Bolhuis: Yeah. Except this. I think everybody can agree this one smells good. Fall, the crisp. [00:02:00] I don't know. It's just, it's a combination between like you get the, you get the bite of the air a little bit. You get the smell of the leaves. You get apples all over the place. And I don't know. It's just, uh, it's a good thing.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: It's a good one. It's a good. Okay. There we go. Nice. Some stumps, some ground stump smell. Perfect.

Chris Bolhuis: That's right.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Hey, today, uh, is, is sort of part two in our, series of an unknown length about, sort of talking to people in industry, geoscientists in industry. and we got the opportunity to talk to Erica [00:02:30] Dahlman, who is again, Chris, a former student of yours and Erica, I think she said she graduated a couple years after I did, is that right?

Am I remembering

Chris Bolhuis: Oh wait, she said she graduated in 2008 from high school.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: so Erica Dahlman is a geologist. She's a senior geologist. A reservoir geologist at ConocoPhillips has worked for ConocoPhillips for several years now. she got her undergrad degree from Grand Valley State University, a master's in neotectonics, as she, she spoke about at the University of Kansas and, uh, has also did a really cool [00:03:00] government affairs internship with the American Geoscience Institute, during college or slightly after.

And so has kind of worked in the hydrocarbon industry for a while. And this was a really. I learned a lot, Chris, about sort of what geologists do in oil and gas exploration companies and production companies. It was really, I gained a lot of insight, I thought here.

Chris Bolhuis: I agree 100%. I can't wait to take this back actually to my students because I learned a ton about the difference between exploration and development, [00:03:30] what the job itself looks like. She did a very good job of painting that picture. it's an exciting field to be in. It is a career that is a strife with ups and downs. And she talks about this in the interview. but I was so impressed with what people like this do on a day to day basis and, and actually the application of geology to their job, I found that to be a very interesting dynamic well.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: I think that's right. We also, we kind of have this, [00:04:00] um, I don't know, maybe Potentially snobby sort of attitude by default. Like if you're not exploring, Oh, the coolest wonders of the earth as a geologist, you're kind of doing something wrong or doing something different. Like applied geology is, is somehow less than, and that's certainly not the case.

Right. And, and, applying the geological style of thinking and, and the sort of geological skill sets to industry. Right. Questions and problems is just as interesting and, if not more important than some of the [00:04:30] random rocks that we study in my research group, you know, like, I mean, it's a, it's a, she was, she's extremely well spoken and, and explained things I thought very, very well. And it's just super interesting perspective on the geosciences in the oil and gas industry, both present and future.

Chris Bolhuis: I cannot believe that Jenny, my wife, did not come down and interrupt us during the interview because she loves Erica. Um, and when she said, yeah, she said she was going to come down and to say hello and, and I said, you know, feel [00:05:00] free, come on in, interrupt us. It doesn't matter. She didn't do it, but she, she really, really likes Erica and has ever since Erica was a young student in 2007 going on summer science, that was really when Jenny first met

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Well, I can, I can see why. Hey, if you like our podcast, you can always learn more the basics of geoscience at geo. campcourses.

com. All of our content is there. We also have all of our past episodes uploaded to Our Camp Geo app. You can download them there. You can also head over [00:05:30] to our podcast website, planetgeocast. com. There you can send us an email, you can subscribe, you can follow us, you can support us.

We really appreciate that. and listen to all of our past episodes. So Chris, with that, let's get to Erica Dahlman

Chris Bolhuis: Coming your way.

So, Erika, we're just gonna go ahead and jump right in then. so we always start off, [00:06:00] whenever we do an interview, this is our first question. Can you tell us a little bit about your path into geology? How you decided on this? career path and was there some sort of aha moment? Was there something special that happened that you saw it and it directed you along this path.

Erica Dalman: Yeah. So, as a kid, I really liked science. I think I can trace that back to like fourth grade, um, where we got to go to the gypsum mines actually there in West

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh yeah.

Erica Dalman: Um, and I, still [00:06:30] have some of those samples, I think somewhere in my parents attic. Um,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: The gypsum mines. I, I don't remember doing that. I think I did, I know I did it, but I don't remember doing that. It was, was that in, uh, were you at Hudsonville at that point? In the Hudsonville public

Erica Dalman: Yeah, at all, we're in elementary. I

Dr. Jesse Reimink: At Allward, okay. Okay, gotcha. All right.

Chris Bolhuis: Groups down there anymore. So I can't take my geology class down there anymore. Yeah.

Erica Dalman: Oh, that's too bad.

Chris Bolhuis: yeah. Anyway, continue, Erica. Sorry to interrupt.

Erica Dalman: So that was probably my, you know, my [00:07:00] first field experience as a little fourth grader. But I remember actually really wanting to be an astronaut. And so anyway, I just kind of kept that interest in, in science, and then it wasn't until freshman year that I had you, Chris, as a earth science teacher that really geology kind of came to the forefront.

And then had the opportunity to have two more classes with you, the Summer Science Institute, and then the junior senior level geology class. but at the time I also still really liked, architecture [00:07:30] and drafting. I'd taken some of the classes like that and was even thinking business. yeah, I don't really remember an aha moment, but just thinking I really liked geology.

and got into the program at, at Grand Valley, and I remember thinking, okay, if this, It doesn't pan out if I decide to switch majors, like that's okay, but I'm just gonna kind of take it one, one step at a time, and just cool opportunities kept, arising, so through my undergraduate degree, being able to do some research, attend conferences, I was also, invited to participate and [00:08:00] applied for a program that was at the time sponsored by ExxonMobil and GSA, the Geological Society of America.

and that was a week long trip out to the Bighorn Basin in Wyoming. and then I did an internship with the American Geosciences Institute, a science policy internship in D. C. So just opportunity, cool opportunities kept kind of popping up through my undergraduate degree. And then decided to take the next step into, do my masters and ultimately start a career in the geoscience industry.

Chris Bolhuis: So when you [00:08:30] went to Grand Valley right out of high school, did you know that you were going into geology then? Like you didn't, you didn't mess around with degree changes or anything like

Erica Dalman: No, so yeah, I declared geology as my major, and then, you know, still thinking maybe open to switch, but then I never looked back and didn't switch it.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: So, I mean, you listed a lot of reasons why you should have been turned off by geology, you know, Chris, with taking three classes from Chris Bolhuis. I mean, when, when did you become excited by it? You know, no, I'm kidding. were you always interested in industry? cause you kind of [00:09:00] like, okay, you got a master's degree, right?

And you, you did this very interesting policy. When was that? Was that your policy, internship? Was that

Erica Dalman: Uh, that was when I was in undergrad,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: during your

undergrad or after undergrad?

Erica Dalman: uh, now I can't remember if it was the summer of my junior year or after, maybe, yeah,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, okay. It was a summer, like a summer internship thing.

Erica Dalman: Yeah, so it was a

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Okay. So, you know, those are kind of three, or at least on the surface, three different things, like sort of academic pursuits, uh, policy pursuits, and then like now you're in industry. So, did you always [00:09:30] have an eye towards industry, or is that something you became more interested in, or were sort of practically interested in anyway?

Erica Dalman: so, um, there was the professor, Patti Vedetic, she actually had worked at when it was just Conoco, um, way back in the day as a carbonate research, and she was probably, I think, one of the only professors that kind of had an oil and gas, focus in some of her classes, So some exposure still through undergrad, but no, I think I just kind of kept it in the, in the possibilities. I [00:10:00] remember looking also at programs for volcanology. so, yeah, I think I was kind of at the undergrad level, still pretty open, but did have some exposure to the oil and gas industry.

So that definitely was, was one of the options that I had kept, in my mind. But then really, as I was looking for graduate programs, That's where I did really focus in on, okay, I wanted to look for programs that did have an existing tie, to the oil and gas industry to at least give myself a greater chance of, of getting a job through that industry.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: I want to kind of [00:10:30] focus in on that because we get a lot of questions both in our professional, like our, our personal students, and then people who listen to this podcast ask us a lot of kind of these sort of career y style questions like, Hey, I'm interested in geology, I super love volcanoes, but, there's not that many practicing volcanologists in the world.

So like, can you get a volcanology master's and then go work in industry? You know, questions that are kind of nuanced and detailed like that. It sounds like you, um, struggled, or you asked yourself those questions. So how, when you're applying to graduate school, like [00:11:00] what were the options, what were your thinking, and how did that eventually play out?

can you, can you go into that a little bit more detail, your thought process there and the decisions available to you?

Erica Dalman: yeah, I certainly was struggling with, with, with those questions. and especially, you know, I didn't have, Um, too many people within my family are kind of close circle that had been geologists. And so I was, you know, certainly relying on my, teachers and professors, during undergrad.

And really wanted the international too, the opportunity to travel. And so I think that was [00:11:30] kind of a pull towards volcanology. There was a program, I don't know if it still exists, at Michigan Tech University. That I think at the time was doing almost like a Peace Corps type rotation, I think, through, geoscience.

And so, kind of that international and travel experience was what drew me to that. But then the other options really were through either universities that had, existing recruiting from oil and gas industry or ties, or specific advisors at, at universities. yeah, at that point I really was looking more [00:12:00] towards, okay, what are and really relying on guidance from the advisors, potential advisors that I was talking to, and their students, if they had gotten internships with the oil and gas industry or oil and gas companies, and kind of their, their

Chris Bolhuis: so Erica, how did you end up, where, okay, where did you go for your graduate studies? Let's talk about that. And were they tailored to this interest in petroleum or exploration geology?

Erica Dalman: So, I did my master's at the University of Kansas, and I found that program, I don't remember if it was through [00:12:30] the GSA conference, probably, I don't think it was the AAPG conference, which is the American Association of Petroleum Geologists, I think it was through GSA. my particular masters wasn't hyper focused, I would say, in, oil and gas, like there's lots of other specialties within the masters that you could get, but it was certainly related, so I did my masters in, Looking at the, deformation, so recent deformation in the Columbian Andes in the frontal most thrust, [00:13:00] so we were trying to quantify the slip rates.

And there is some oil and gas activity, the research was funded by Echo Patrol. is a Colombian national oil company, but my specific advisor wasn't really a, historically very involved in the, in the oil and gas industry. Like he was very structural geology, tectonics focused.

so this was kind of, you know, tied to it, but wasn't, there's definitely some very oil and gas focused researchers and, and programs. The biggest [00:13:30] tie from University of Kansas at the time was their carbonate department, and that was, they had a big consortium with industry, but I wasn't one of the carbonate students.

Chris Bolhuis: Well, that's interesting. I did not know that. So did your master's degree, was that helpful in the job that you currently have?

Erica Dalman: In a broad sense, yes. you know, it definitely gave me, well, starting from my undergrad and then the types of courses that we did at, um, in my master's level, you know, understanding plate [00:14:00] tectonics, um, orogenic, formation, thrust belts. So, yeah, strong focus on, on tectonics. And those principles are very important in, in oil and gas, right?

We need to understand the geologic history. but I learned a lot on the job. So there is still a lot of the tools and the type of data that I use in my day to day. I didn't have a lot of exposure to that my masters. So in a broad sense it did, I was at least, you know, within the realm of the geology that's applicable to oil and gas.

and so [00:14:30] because my program, I guess, wasn't as specifically tied to oil and gas, I tried to do other things to kind of show that interest and, and learn more. So, there was a

student chapter, of AAPG. That I was involved in, and so we would have different speakers that would come in, or, you know, we would attend, the conferences, or, right, there was always student chapter activities.

And then, there was also the Imperial Barrel Award competition.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: were, you did that. Okay, cool.

Erica Dalman: I did.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah.

Chris Bolhuis: you talk about [00:15:00] that a second, Erica?

Erica Dalman: Yeah, so that's a, it's a pretty short, I want to say like eight to ten week, project. And so you have teams of, I think it's max up to five students from each university. And you basically do a mini project of oil exploration.

And so the students are given a data set from, anywhere in the world. We had a data set from Alaska, typically where our data is public, right? There's certain countries or states where data is more, more available, from the oil and gas industry. And so you're [00:15:30] given some wells, some seismic data, and you need to kind of...

The picture is there, is there prospectivity here for the oil and gas, or not? And so, yeah, pretty comprehensive workflow really within that 8 week period and then you give a presentation at the regional chapter and then from that they select winners and you kind of go up all the way international level at the APG conference where you give a presentation and they select the winners.

Chris Bolhuis: So how did your team do?

Erica Dalman: So we came [00:16:00] in second at regionals. This was the first, I want to say this was the first or second year that KU had been, had participated in, in the competition, so we were definitely going up against, OU, which is a big oil, oil school, so we felt very proud about, uh, coming in kind of as the underdogs and, and almost taking

their, their claim

to fame, but...

Chris Bolhuis: What a, cool experience. What's it called again?

Erica Dalman: The Imperial Barrel, oh, well, a [00:16:30] competition or award,

IBA.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: How, um, who, so who, uh, who won that, those awards? Did you do it one year or two years, Erka? Cause the

Erica Dalman: So, uh, you're, at the time, you were only allowed to do it one year.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, okay. Got ya. When I was a grad student in Alberta, it was, you know, big oil and gas. University and department as well. And so the, the barrel award competition was always, it was like really competitive to get on the barrel team in the department.

And then also, they were always, uh, they were unhappy with third place. Let's put it [00:17:00] that way. I think if they took second or first was the goal and they didn't really like to lose to like Calgary or, you know, these other universities that were close competitors, so, it was quite, you know, competitive thing.

Anyway, that's really cool. So I, Maybe we can touch on like the, the value of different degree types, in your job and in your profession. So it sounds like you kind of were maybe, without this sounding bad, a little bit strategic about what you chose to work on. You weren't necessarily like, Oh, I love volcanoes or I love metamorphic [00:17:30] rocks, so I'm going to do a master's in that.

You were a little bit more like career strategic, which is great. And I think that's like a really, would that be an accurate?

Erica Dalman: Yes. Mm hmm.

Chris Bolhuis: Erica, can you please tell us, just describe what your job is, what you do in a broad sense, and maybe a little bit about what you do day to day, and then I'd like to move into college degrees and how that plays into the job that you do.

Erica Dalman: So my work right now, I would probably be [00:18:00] described as a, what's called development geologist. And so in contrast to exploration geologists, which I've done a little bit of that before. but right now we're in the life cycle of, production or where we're just drilling a lot of wells. there is still some exploration or trying to understand, what we call the play or where the oil and gas is coming from.

but we're definitely a little bit farther along, so it's kind of in the, in the development

Dr. Jesse Reimink: can I interrupt with a question on that, Erica? This is all, cause I always get confused by these terms. Could you give an [00:18:30] example of like could you set the stage like geologically like what is a basin? What is a play? where our exploration geologists and developmental geologists like in that life cycle of a of a discovery?

I guess can you kind of like give a hypothetical or a real example of that because I always get confused like what is a Play what is a basin? Which one's bigger? how do these things interact

like the just the terms we're using here I think that would be really helpful

Erica Dalman: Okay.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: be

interested in the answer 'cause I don't know

Erica Dalman: [00:19:00] basin is the, is the bigger, thing geologically, right? So I work right now in the, Permian Basin, and even within that, there's sub basins. So there's the Midland Basin, and that goes up to the Central Basin Platform, and the Delaware Basin. So there are two smaller sub basins, which are in... The Permian Basin, which is the, it is tied to the geologic, era or time period, right, of, of the Permian,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: And this is all in West Texas? Or okay, it's all West Texas, like the, the

Erica Dalman: yeah, well, the Permian Basin would be, would just be [00:19:30] considered, in West Texas, yeah, it's a discrete, defined, um, and then within that are the different clays, so those are, whether it's the individual formation that is getting, developed, Or if it's a combination, right?

But the play would be a unique set of components that make up that hydrocarbon system,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: So, you know, a a, a shale layer, that's a producer within the basin or something like that. or, or a dom structure. That's like a trap. [00:20:00] Could be a play or

something.

Okay. will there be multiple companies all going after the same play or is like ConocoPhillips has one play and another company has another play?

Erica Dalman: no, so it's, it's mostly land driven, and so you have rights to most of the subsurface, there's definitely exceptions where, where your ownership is debt severance, they call it, so someone might have the ability to just drill some of the shallower and another company might have stuff to that, to the

Dr. Jesse Reimink: oh, that's interesting. Oh, I didn't know that, that it gets [00:20:30] subdivided vertically like that. Oh,

Erica Dalman: yes. so someone might own the land but then they lease to oil companies their ability to drill in the subsurface. so yeah, that's a whole world within the oil and gas industry is managing all that, the leases and the interest and the royalties, there's all that whole component before even getting to producing oil.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah. Okay. Interesting.

Erica Dalman: so when we look at, oil or, when we're looking at hydrocarbon provinces or a plague, there's five [00:21:00] elements that we, talk about. So it's the source rock. where did the hydrocarbons come from, and those, so that's an organic rich, typically a shale, but an organic rich rock, the reservoir, so those hydrocarbons moved into a reservoir, so that typically a sandstone, but it can be carbonate, something that's porous and permeable, so there's source rock, reservoir, hydrocarbon, migration, generation, and timing.

Thank you. So, did that organic rich, formation, did that actually generate hydrocarbons, or did it go through the [00:21:30] geologic processes needed, to generate hydrocarbons? And really right at the sweet spot, right? We didn't want it to go too hot and too deep for it to be kind of overcooked, we call it.

so there's that component. And did that occur in a geologic time frame that the reservoir was already deposited, right? So really it's this very intricate dance of all these things had to line up, that there was a source rock. It was generated and migrated at a certain time that the reservoir was already there, and then was there [00:22:00] something to trap it in that reservoir, so there's the, so then there's the trap and the seal, and the trap can be a stratigraphic trap, so it went from, the porosity changes from sandstone to a shale, is trapping that in the porous sand, it can be structural trap, and then a top seal and side seal where you need to kind of, you know, keep it all in within the geologic time scale.

And that's typically then another tight, non permeable source rock. so from exploration geologists, you don't know if all those elements are working. So you're trying to [00:22:30] understand where are basins or where are areas where this all lines up. And there's kind of, you know, complete what they call wildcat or new ventures where there might only have been one or two where there really hasn't been any exploration for oil and gas.

And so you're trying to use your geologic principles of, okay, we know this was deposited in this environment to kind of piece together these five elements, and see if actually is oil and gas. You know, there might be some elements, there could be some seeps that have come up on the, I don't know, up on the surface, whether it's a [00:23:00] seafloor or on land, um. So there's typically some clues that yes, we think this is a hydrocarbon bearing basin, um, but you really are trying to put the elements together. Compared to what I'm doing now in the

Chris Bolhuis: Erica, can I interrupt a second? I'm sorry. Um, but I want to go back a second to the exploration side of it. So if they piece it all together, like you beautifully described those L all those elements in play, do they have to pitch this then to the [00:23:30] executives? because drilling a well is expensive, and so do they have to pitch it and convince them and, okay, that paints a picture in my head of, got to be a lot of pressure.

Erica Dalman: it is. there's a lot of, um, if companies have an exploration program where they are really doing this new ventures wildcat, I mean, you really need a whole breadth or whole portfolio of opportunities because you don't know which ones are going to work. and so, yeah, it definitely is.

It's presentation to. first and second level management, [00:24:00] okay, if there seems to be likes to it, then that gets up, right? And it's a company level up to CEO level of, yes, we are going to make, significant investment in, in this opportunity, whether it's to acquire more data.

That's, the next step of, um, not as much capital, not as much money to spend, right, to, is there more seismic we can acquire? What other data can we, can we use, to decrease the risk? Because, yeah, these, these could be, it's a lot of money to, to drill a well. Um, and so, yeah, this definitely would be conversation.

And then not only, so we [00:24:30] paint the geologic picture, but then work closely with the reservoir engineer, variety of people to say, okay, how much oil do we think can be, can be there, and is that economic, and how much could we produce, right? So you really need to paint out the whole project, that could come

from that opportunity.

Chris Bolhuis: okay. All right. So, that's awesome. Let's move into the development stage then.

Erica Dalman: So yeah, so then, if it's in an area where it's proven, and the Permian Basin has been drilling, producing oil for, I should know the exact time, but for sure a hundred [00:25:00] years. so we know that the petroleum system works, and the Permian Basin is amazing in that it just has stacked pay.

I mean, there's the source rocks, there's hybrid plays, there's the conventional sandstone and the source rock, and all different types of, formation after formation that, that's hydrocarbon bearing. And

so, Now it's more about optimizing.

Chris Bolhuis: What did you call that? A stacked play?

Erica Dalman: Stack pay, we

call it. So pay

is what, what has oil and gas. and so there's some, some [00:25:30] basins where it's really just one interval that they're developing from. But, there's others where it just, it was a sweet spot geologically and it has just formation after formation that, that has oil and gas.

in the U. S., I mean there's the Eagleford, which is another big play in Texas, the Willison Basin up in North Dakota, but the Permian Basin is, is pretty unique in that it just has a lot of, a lot of, a lot of hydrocarbon, and so now it's okay, we know, we know that it's producing, or that it has hydrocarbons,[00:26:00] now it's more, okay, optimizing within that which areas have a little bit more, a little bit less, which ones are easier to drill, types of fluids, right, so within hydrocarbons you can have from condensate oil to oil, heavy oil, and then gas, wet gas, so now it's trying to understand, okay, within the fluid type, what areas are, are better?

so that's where development where I'm not necessarily trying to figure out those five elements. it's just within what we call [00:26:30] that play. Where are the best areas? and are there geologic reasons for the different performance that we would say within the well? So if there's one area that is producing a lot better.

Is that geologically driven, or is that based on the engineering, so how the wells were drilled, how they were completed? so it becomes, yeah, a lot more, like, fine scale,

optimization

Dr. Jesse Reimink: oh, okay, oh,

that's a good word. So it's like discovery versus optimization, these two [00:27:00] different roles for geologists. That, how, so, uh, so many questions about this. This, how are you in development now? Cause you like the optimization side cause you like it more, or was it like a play you discovered that you got into?

Or like, does somebody discover a place and then follow it through and become a developmental geologist cause they know it so well?

Erica Dalman: to that last question, it depends. I think different companies structure it differently where, yeah, if you did, um, kind of work that early phase and you can get to the testing and, continue on. [00:27:30] Um, I'm currently in, role because of the focus of the company, so, You know, this is now their biggest, business unit, where the most jobs are, most activity, where they're investing the most money, so that's really the main driver for, for why I'm in, in this, but it is also a very interesting play, like we do have some, activity in, in other areas, but yeah, right now my focus while I'm here is, Because that's where most of the company is investing the most

of its money.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. as a hydrocarbon companies, you know, [00:28:00] stop investment in exploration or, or are forced to in various ways or, or de incentivized to explore for hydrocarbons, it becomes more optimization. Okay. Interesting. Oh, that's super interesting. okay. So this is, uh, I remember, um, one of the professors in my undergrad had worked, I think for Exxon for a while.

And then, you know, came back to be a professor after maybe 10 years. And I, I can't remember the number he said, but he was an exploration geologist and he said that like a successful, percentage of [00:28:30] like successful wells. I can't remember what it was, but it was something like baseball. It was like super low.

Batting average, to be successful. It was like, I don't know if it was one in 10 or one in five or something like that, but it felt

shockingly

low. One in 10.

Erica Dalman: Mm hmm.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: That's like a good

Erica Dalman: Yeah, I mean, I don't know if that's true across, uh, there's probably a real answer. But, ballpark, yeah, 1 in 10. So you'd have to,

yeah, for 10 wells, you'd drill only one and you wouldn't actually find hydrocarbons at that early exploration

Dr. Jesse Reimink: [00:29:00] Yeah, that's

interesting. I find that a very surprising stat. I mean, like,

yeah,

Chris Bolhuis: I guess I envision hotshots walking around that are, you know, batting, you know, 120

instead of a hundred, you

know,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: right, right, right, exactly,

Chris Bolhuis: and then you got the bottom feeders that are, that are, you know, they're, they're like eight out of, or,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: 08,

Yeah,

Chris Bolhuis: Yeah, 08. That's right. Yeah.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: yeah,

that's funny.

Chris Bolhuis: okay, Erica. So I still want to [00:29:30] come back to the degrees because I think this is absolutely fascinating.

First of all, I've, I've learned, um, actually a ton so far in this conversation, but what does your day to day look like in your job?

Erica Dalman: yeah, so my day to day, a lot of computer work, so I rarely go out to the field, um, to look at rocks or try to, you know, or at the, at the well, so it's definitely

Dr. Jesse Reimink: yeah, me too, me too, unfortunately.

Erica Dalman: but so [00:30:00] I work closely with the reservoir engineer and we evaluate new wells that are being drilled. And so the group that I'm in, is a little bit unique in that, we're evaluating wells that aren't operated by ConocoPhillips, by the company we work for. And so we might have an interest or whether that's.

as well as 1, 5%, or up to 50 percent uh, interest in that land, and so whoever is, is going to be an operator is proposing these wells, and then we choose whether or not we want to spend money and [00:30:30] participate in, in that well, so make the investment to, to pay for the wells, and then ultimately get the whole, the profit from, from that

well.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: can you lay out real quick, Erika, who's on that team? That seems like a really interesting team to be on. Like, who are the members of the team and what are their specialties? You said a reservoir engineer? Is that, is that what you said you

work closely with?

Erica Dalman: Yeah. So that the core of the, of what we, what they call the technical team. So that's more on the geology and engineering side. it's definitely heavily, um, dominated by engineers. So that's also a [00:31:00] shift when you go from exploration into development. In the exploration world, the geologists are really spearheading that and make up the bulk of the teams as you move into, into development that becomes, heavier focused on, on the engineering side.

so there's, um, some geologists. Covered reservoir engineers, and that would be the technical team, but then associated with that is the, what they call the land management team or land negotiator team, so everything I've described of how much, who owns the leases, the minerals, you know, [00:31:30] that's a toll, a whole shop, And then data support. So as we're drilling this well, just managing the amount of data that we come in. So that's another, portion. And then there's, the finance team.

I think that would probably be the somewhat core that supports this area of the non operated,

asset.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Wow,

interesting. you get to learn a lot day to day working with all these very disparate, expertise sets on, on a single well or a single, like, proposed site. That sounds super interesting.

Erica Dalman: Yeah, [00:32:00] and in this particular group, I've gotten a lot more exposure to the commercial side of things to, okay, how much, okay, I can understand the geology, but then what's the economic value of this? Well, and then if it doesn't, you know, meet the interest of this company to participate in, How can we sell this?

what do we think the value is? So there's a lot of the commercial aspect of, do we trade this interest for another? Does another company have something that we are interested in? Do we just outright sell it? So a lot of exposure to the, to the [00:32:30] commercial side, which has been really interesting and dynamic.

Chris Bolhuis: Okay,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: want to come back to Chris's, thing about the degrees, because I think this is something that, you know, I feel a lot of these questions from students, uh, from undergrads and, grad students in our program too, like how, how do they think about what degrees are valuable and what specializations are valuable?

so could you maybe like compare and contrast, you the bachelor's degree versus a master's versus maybe a PhD even. Like in Alberta, when I was in grad school, there was a whole bunch of people who got PhDs [00:33:00] in, you know, carbonate geochemistry or, trace fossils that a lot of people worked up in the oil sands.

So like looking at trace fossils and getting a PhD in that, and then going on work in the hydrocarbon industry, the, especially the PhD MSC one, I think is like a pretty, well, I don't know, can you evaluate those three degrees or compare them to each other? Maybe.

Chris Bolhuis: Yeah, because Erika, weren't you going to go into and get your PhD from KU? And then you, I think you transitioned into a master's instead.

Erica Dalman: Yeah, so I kind of went, I was originally [00:33:30] applying for master's programs and then from my top two schools, uh, one of which was KU, they offered me funding for a PhD and then my other school was also PhD. And so I, you know, I kind of thought about it, but I was going to start with master's and I was like, well, okay, I guess I'll try the PhD.

Um, and then starting, so once I started my program. and had gotten an internship with, ConocoPhillips, and so then, you know, then I transitioned back to, to Master's. So I

had started Master's and was offered a PhD and then,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, so you have [00:34:00] a really interesting take on this question then. I'm excited to hear your perspective on it.

Erica Dalman: Yeah, so, I guess I'll start with, if I look at my colleagues, most of us have Master's degree.

a smaller portion have Ph. D. and I, you know, I don't know what the numbers are now. I had to guess, maybe 20 percent

or a quarter or something.

and then very few, that are doing the type of work that I do have a bachelor's degree.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: So that, would master's, would you [00:34:30] classify that as like the working degree? you can have whatever level of career you want with a master's, whereas maybe a bachelor's you're kind of restricted a little bit to, you

might not be able to move up as quickly. Okay.

Erica Dalman: yeah, yeah, I would say, yeah, definitely, Masters is the, Very rarely, and you know, this is, always changes, but, when companies are doing a lot heavier recruiting at, at schools, you know, they might still interview some, bachelor students and maybe offer an internship, but I think typically it was with a view of, okay, the next [00:35:00] step would be that they would get their, their master's degree.

as a geologist now, as a, petrophysicist, so that can be, there are some geologists that go into petrophysics or, but typically that's, engineering, mostly background. so there could still be into the, what's called the technical or petrotech, career that there could be some undergrad. And I do know some geologists that, started as, as bachelors and working in the office.

but

yeah, it, it typically is masters.

Yeah.

Chris Bolhuis: can you define what a petrophysicist is for the listeners?[00:35:30]

Erica Dalman: Yeah,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: And for, and for Chris. For the listener, right, Chris? Quote unquote, the listener.

Chris Bolhuis: You like how I did that? You just called me out.

That's not okay.

Erica Dalman: so um, a petrophysicist is looking at the tools that we use in a well to try and understand the subsurface. So, as geologists in the oil and gas industry, right, this is all in the subsurface, we can't see it, like we can go to outcrops to kind of get an inference, [00:36:00] but really we're just piecing together data and, um, making a lot of interpretations from that, and so one of the, the best tools we have is when you drill a well, you acquire, various data types, so the basic one would be a gamma ray, whereas you've got a tool that's running down the whole well and you're, um, essentially measuring the radioactivity of the, of the rocks, right?

So shale can often have, uranium, thorium, and potassium, which are radioactive. And so you're measuring the difference and the sandstone typically doesn't have that. [00:36:30] And so they're the ones that are really in, the, details of, and there's a whole suite of, of logs that we call. So just different data types that we run down the, the whole and interpret off of that.

And so the petrophysicist is really the first one to look at that data. cause we can. Acquire a lot of information about the, about the rocks, but it still isn't directly. This is what it is. Right? So we're, we're also still making assumptions on. Okay, because this has high radioactivity, that must be a shale and then [00:37:00] this other log gives us information about the porosity.

So the petrophysicist is, is really, involved in that, in that process. And they're creating the models of mathematical models with that data, to then hand off to the, to the geologist to, to put that in its geologic context.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: So can

we,

Erica Dalman: of physics behind that and

what all, yeah,

that's where the

Dr. Jesse Reimink: I mean, this sounds like, and you kind of touched on it earlier that you got a lot of on the job, training, like you, you did not come out of your master's, uh, in neotechtonics, like ready to hit the ground running as a [00:37:30] developmental geologist or something. Right. So how what advice would you give to students about what type of degree?

Like there's all sorts of master's degrees. They could come work with me on geochronology, How, amongst your colleagues, are most people structural geologists by training, uh, in their degree program, or is there a whole, a wide variety?

Erica Dalman: Probably most of them are, um,

sedimentologists or stratigraphers. That tends to be a bigger, focus. And for this, the types of basins that we're currently [00:38:00] working in. Um, there was a time where, like, carbonates, geologists were a big focus, and, and that might still be for, for other companies, right, in different parts of the world, that, that you're looking at, There could be, there probably are a lot more variety of, of masters.

It just doesn't, I mean, I don't know if a lot of people know that I did neotectonics, right,

because it doesn't come into play really in our, in our, day to day. Um, so unless it was a specialty that was directly applicable to that, and I, you know, and you were continuing in, in that specialty, we kind of just [00:38:30] get washed out as geologists, right, where

we get to now focus on petroleum geology.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: yeah. You're all lumped in as the people who look at the rocks.

Erica Dalman: yeah, exactly.

Chris Bolhuis: So this is Jesse's roundabout way of asking if he's employable in the petroleum

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Can I have a job? It sounds super fun.

Erica Dalman: so I think there, I would say yes. I think there's probably, unfortunately, some bias of companies only looking for, geologists that have, You know, [00:39:00] research that's applicable to, to the oil and gas industry, which I think is a loss because there's a lot of smart geologists that are, you know, yeah, you might have a particular interest in, an aspect of geology, but you're still dealing with uncertainty.

You're still, making a lot of interpretations based on data. Like, I think there's definitely. The skill set is there.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: That's a really interesting question. Okay. this brings up a, uh, sort of a one off question. And Chris, you're going to give me a hard time about this question. I predict. So Eric, if you don't have an answer for this, that's totally fine, but it makes me wonder [00:39:30] how you view your skillset. we kind of think that the hydrocarbon industry is certainly changing in the future.

It'll be different than it, than it was the last 10 years, probably. Right. So like, how do you view your skillset? How transferable is your skillset to, I don't know, Critical minerals stuff, or sequestration companies, or hydrogen exploration companies, like how do you view your skill set in the future, going forward, I guess.

And,

Chris Bolhuis: a really good question.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: oh wow, thanks Chris.

Chris Bolhuis: Yeah, I [00:40:00] like it. I like it. I'm interested to hear

Dr. Jesse Reimink: don't want to just throw you off, Erica, but I'd be interested in, yeah, I don't know, what are your thoughts about that?

Erica Dalman: yeah, I think the biggest and where I've seen, colleagues make the change, the easiest, maybe I don't know if the easiest word, but into carbon, carbon sequestration. So, as I was describing before that we want to look for, like, play or areas where we can contain the hydrocarbon, right?

And we want that reservoir to be filled with, hydrocarbons. Now, when we're looking at carbon capture. if we're going to [00:40:30] inject carbon, like we still need it to be contained. We're just looking for now maybe where there isn't, oil and gas, right? But where is still a reservoir? And if we inject it, it's not going to come out through a fault.

It's not going to, so there's still, those skills are, are very transferable. and it's in the subsurface, right? We're trying to still understand. It's, it's a lot of the similar data. We're looking at seismic data, our

wells. that is definitely where I see a lot of, geologists that have either left from the, um, exploration and development standpoint and, and [00:41:00] going over to, to carbon capture and sequestration.

the mining and looking at critical minerals, I like I said, in the, in the broad sense, I think it would be transferable. but we probably would run into a little bit more, um, you know, if you're going up against someone that does have experience and looking at hard rocks and really a little bit more in depth at, um, mineral exploration, they're of course going to have a, a competitive edge.

so I have seen, I have a colleague that did go, into mining, but he had done a little bit of mining, I think, before his [00:41:30] master's or through his master's and then went into, uh, oil and gas and back out to, to mining. So,

but I haven't, yeah, actively, tried to see, um, I think there definitely are transferable skills, but it probably is just a little bit more of a stretch and kind of do a little bit more retooling and, and education.

and then, yeah, I don't know enough about the hydrogen space to, to know you know, how transferable that would be. it might be easier than, than others if, at certain oil companies where they are kind of doing traditional oil and gas and other energy sources in the mix to kind of get some of [00:42:00] that on the job training before really becoming

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Cool, yeah, super interesting. position to be in.

Chris Bolhuis: Erica, I have not heard you mention, or maybe you did and I missed it, but I don't think so. seismic data. How important is this in exploration and or development? or do you just simply have enough raw data to go off from where, where that's not really used that much anymore?

Erica Dalman: So, in exploration, it's gold. I mean, that is, it is, is one of the primary data types that, [00:42:30] that are used. And especially because when you're on exploration, you might have one well, probably rarely just one well, but the handful of wells, right, depending on the area. And, geologic systems are complex, and so what happens between those 10 miles apart or however far apart these wells are, a lot can change, and so that's where seismic data, which is a lot cheaper to acquire than drilling a well, can really paint the picture and help um, understand the geology, happening within those wells or even in areas where we don't have wells.

that really does, you can [00:43:00] understand the, the basin geometry, the seismic data gives you some information on the lithology, what types of rock, right? seismic data, which is requiring uh, sound waves through the earth and, and different rock proper, different rock types reflect that, data differently.

And so we can really get an understanding of what types of rocks are there. hydrocarbons can actually be identified on seismic data too. or conventional oil and gas trap, you can see often where the, the oil and gas line is and where water is under [00:43:30] that.

so in the exploration space, it's, it's invaluable. In the development phase, it's also important, but less so. And there's some areas, especially here in the, in the Permian Basin, where there's just so many wells. that we don't use, uh, seismic data. Now there are still, there's still a big portion where we utilize it, and, and especially, when you are drilling a well and you're trying to understand, you want to stay within the target, and a few feet might make a difference, or 20 feet, 30 feet, is there a small scale fault, that's where [00:44:00] seismic can, can be utilized.

but it definitely takes a, back step compared to in the exploration world.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: I have random question, Chris, that I'd like to interject, if you'll, if with your permission, so I, going back to this, we were at this conference, right, Erika, and this, you know, we were all celebrating Chris Bolhuis, which was very nice, but, I was feeling quite old at that conference, like, and I've been feeling kind of old for the last little while now and feeling bad for myself about that, but I was kind of shocked. I felt like the younger generation of Chris Bolhuis students, [00:44:30] like younger than us, maybe like 5 to, I don't know, 10 years younger, um, definitely had a different Chris Bolhuis experience in some way.

Did you get that feeling too? Did you, do you feel

like they, uh, well, I feel, I don't know.

There was, Yeah, well, I feel like the, uh, I feel like Eric and I got the, the young and maybe spunky Chris Bolhuis, and I feel like the new, the, you know, more recent students are getting a, a little bit, maybe slightly more subdued or slightly, you, you just like, know how to do it a little bit [00:45:00] better.

Maybe you were like a little bit more, Experimental, when we were going through, maybe. Maybe we got an experimental version a little bit more. Cause, Chris, you had just started the geology class, I mean, it was not that old when we were going through, I suppose.

And now you're a senior and very po you're very polished. You know what you're about. You know how to do it well. It's very clean and well wha

Chris Bolhuis: you know, that is 100 percent true. I think that you guys, you two are going to find out this same thing within your career. [00:45:30] I think everybody, as you move through your career has to find a new motivation for doing what you do. You know, because when you're young and you start out your reasons for wanting to be really good at what you do and in your enthusiasm is different.

And then as you progress through, you know, you're older, you're wiser. you just change a little bit and, and all of a sudden that motivation that you had when you were young isn't there anymore, you know, and I think about this a lot with summer science, I took both of you on this when I was much [00:46:00] younger in my motivation.

I'll tell you what, before we left for that trip, I didn't sleep. You know, I was nervous. I was excited. I had all these other things going on. Now I sleep like a baby before we leave on this trip. Uh, you know, it's like, I don't have any nerves about anything, you know? And so my motivation has to change as I do this, this same job for umpteen, you know, decades that

I've done it, it has to change, or I'm going to become stale.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: What [00:46:30] is your new motivation, Chris? And then, let's go around, because I'm interested in this. I'll give mine, and then Eric, I want to hear yours, too. Like, because you've been doing it like a decade, too. roundabout.

Erica Dalman: Yep.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: is your new motivation?

Chris Bolhuis: that's really interesting because when I realized, I'm going to tell you when I realized this back in probably it was 10 years ago that my excitement for doing the summer trip that I lead

was not the same. And I actually was thinking about giving it up because it wasn't exciting anymore. And somebody somewhere said something and it stuck with me [00:47:00] about changing your motivation.

I'm like, well, you know what? You're right. Because I think that. A trip like this and, these geology classes that take kids out into the field and into the wild and push them in different ways is so important. And that's my motivation now, is that, bringing students and connecting them to the planet that we live on and connecting them to these amazingly beautiful places is a really important job to have.

And that's my motivation is more of a [00:47:30] steward now,

I guess.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: And less about, you're excited to go hiking out in the,

you're less excited to go hiking yourself. You're more excited to, bring people along on the

experience or something like that.

Chris Bolhuis: and then sit back and watch the light go on in them

and have them get excited about it. I, I really like that.

And so that's my motivation now.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: that's interesting. So I, I definitely feel this and I'll And many aspects of my career, I think, but one of them I'll, I'll talk about like research and cause I used to be super excited [00:48:00] about every new data set and publishing a paper, was amazing. The first publication, you know, even like the fourth or fifth was like, so exciting.

Now, I mean, we just published a paper a couple of weeks ago. I was like, okay, yeah, that, okay, done. now what's, you know, onto the next thing. It was like, you know, 10 different papers on my desk at any one time in different stages. So it's less exciting to have. And I'm, I'm a little bit struggling for the motivate, like where the, the motivation of the next thing is.

And I think it's more like, I'm [00:48:30] interested in this critical minerals space and learning about that and maybe doing some research in that and sort of developing new kind of techniques for that, because it's Really applicable in understanding, studying ancient rocks, maybe doesn't really scratch the itch in a way that it used to.

And I want to do some more applied stuff, stuff that's like more applied to society, uh, a little bit more. I think we talked about this over beer, Erica, when we were at the, at the conference in May a little bit about this different or about this, you know, the, the disconnect and, so that, that's my answer to it, [00:49:00] Erica.

How, what do you think about this motivation

Erica Dalman: this is giving me some good thoughts, and maybe brought some words to things that maybe I hadn't necessarily, thought or, yeah, been, um, explicit about, but, but it probably is going on. yeah, you know, when I started out in the industry, you're learning, yeah, you're learning so much, there's all these new data types, new basins, new geology.

and, you know, you're, you're viewed as new, right, so, so everyone's, teaching you stuff, and now kind of getting at that, point in my career [00:49:30] where I'm not an expert, there's people that have been doing this a lot longer, but I'm also not the newest one, Newest kid on the block either. And so I think trying to, yeah, I think that's probably still some work that I'm doing though.

Okay. What is the motivation? How do I see my role now? on the one hand, it is exciting because, okay, now I, do have a little bit more expertise and feel like I can, give recommendations and where we should be investing. the company's money, and so I, you know, do have a little bit more ownership now than, than what you do when you're starting out.

but, yeah, certainly at a [00:50:00] time where now the oil and gas industry has, through my career has gone through all kinds of ups and downs, and so that probably is still kind of a constant, search of, okay, what is my motivation, and,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: How have you experienced those ups and downs? I mean, I know it's an incredibly cyclical industry. it's like every seven years, there's uh, I experienced one full cycle when I was in grad school in Alberta, and in Alberta, it's like West Texas, right? Oil dominates the entire economy.

And so, everybody experienced it from the random guys I played basketball [00:50:30] with. They were experiencing these cycles as well in their, I don't know what they're doing, drilling engineers or something. So does that look like to be in a very cyclical industry for you?

Erica Dalman: Yeah, it can be, I mean, it can be quite stressful at times, so I started out, um, in 2015, so price of oil was already starting to, to go down from its peak of 120, where oil companies were hiring geologists like crazy, I mean, they couldn't fit enough people in an office, right, you'd have like four or five geologists in your office, to then, going way [00:51:00] down to a 20, price of oil.

And so, I was one of the last few really that got in kind of in that, in that wave before they, stopped hiring for, for a little bit. And so, I think the first thing that it taught me was, okay, we're paid well, but I don't know how long it's going to last, right? And so, I think for anyone getting into a, a cyclical...

Industry where the booms can be really good, but then you also need to be able to withstand the down cycles. and so that was a, just a very personal, learning where, [00:51:30] okay, I'm starting out getting paid well from, from my master's, but I don't know how long this is, this is gonna last, and so living well below your means and, and then I think, yeah, always looking for can I be learning?

what are the new tools coming out, right? Always kind of trying to stay on the, on the forefront the changes. but then also, you know, it is just luck too, right? So there are a lot of good people that were hired and then because the companies hired too many, an activity fell or were laid off. so through my [00:52:00] career, I think we've been, the company have gone through seven layoffs out of a nine year career.

Which is, and then I was laid off once and then, and then just rehired, what, two years ago now? A year and a half ago?

So yeah, it's, uh, it can be quite stressful. And some people through that, similar, my story, they wanted from their master is going to oil and gas. and then after seeing that for a couple of years decided, you know what, this isn't for me, I'm going to go do something else.

And so I think that, definitely is a very personal decision, whether [00:52:30] you're, uh, want to, want to stay, stay with it, but it can be really fun. I mean, as a geoscientist. We get to work with a lot of cool data and see the fruit of it and, you know, test new ideas. Well, I think this area is going to produce better, but well, maybe it's something else.

And so it can be a really fun and dynamic career. but certainly has that kind of downside of, cyclicity.

Chris Bolhuis: Erica, this up and down kind of thing, and recently being laid off, are you going to just weather the storm do you think for the rest of your [00:53:00] career in terms of just give into this or, or are you looking for maybe moving in a different direction in the future?

Erica Dalman: Yeah, I don't know. I think, um, depending on the day, I might have a different, a different answer, right? I think,

um,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: yeah,

Erica Dalman: to some extent, yeah, weathering the storm and, and right now, you know, oil, I think it's about 80. I think companies have learned a lot from the last downturn of, okay, we don't need to every increase now hire a bunch of people to then lay them back off.

Right. So I think, [00:53:30] There's hopefully some learnings from companies of, okay, let's be a little bit more, strategic about our workforce because, to not keep, like, whipping people around. but, I don't know, yeah, some days I also think about doing something totally different outside of, geoscience.

So, yeah, so far, I, I'm so liking what I'm doing and... and it's compelling and interesting enough, but I think definitely through the layoff and just through, you know, the years of, of the ups and downs, I think I hold my job a little more [00:54:00] loosely, right? Not try to have my identity be so tied to, to that and say, okay, yes, this could be taken away at any time or I can also, maybe have the opportunity to get back in.

I think I try to at least kind of hold that a little bit more loosely than I did probably when I, when I was starting out.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh that's a really, like the way you phrased that, um, keep it less of your identity. I mean that's a hard thing for geologists, like the

geoscience field, we're all very passionate. You go into geology, at least many people of our generation, went into geology because it's [00:54:30] cool, and you like it, and it's exciting, and then you figure out a career after that.

I think maybe that might be changing with, geoscience being super relevant to society in a new kind of way. People might be going into it because of its relevance, not because it's cool. but we, I think geologists, on average, kind of, are defined by, as being geologists. I know I am, I define myself as that in many

ways, so.

I like the way you phrased that though, to

hold it a little bit loosely, that was uh, nicely put.

Chris Bolhuis: All right, Erica. Kind of along the same line. Do you, do you find the [00:55:00] area that you're in to be a very male dominated, profession?

Erica Dalman: Yes, I do. So, um, I think maybe the industry average is 30%, female to male at the probably entry level, maybe. Some companies last 20, and depending on kind of where within the, the life cycle of the oil and gas industry, whether that's, what I'm doing, versus kind of the downstream and refinery and more field based, right?

It varies, but I think if you look at the oil and gas industry as a whole, it's probably [00:55:30] between 25 and 30 percent. so that's been, you know, I try to also put that in perspective that it is true for a lot of STEM industries still, unfortunately. And, I've been also very lucky to work for a larger company, and has an international component too.

And so that has, I think, really enriched my experience to have a lot of really good role models, female role models in the geoscience or in the business aspect of, of the [00:56:00] company. so in some, some regard, I, I would like to see, you know, continued progress and, and representation and unfortunately, you know that 30%. Each level up through management kind of keeps decreasing, and so if you look at the CEO across the board and CEOs of oil and gas companies, it is certainly much less, diverse.

And so that is definitely something that, lot of good people are still trying to improve and kind of bring that awareness, to the industry.

Chris Bolhuis: I know that this is really an important topic for you, Erica, because you, do you remember [00:56:30] sending me a book? a number of years ago. Do you remember that? Okay. It's so funny because every once in a while, Erica, I get random packages from you. once I got a package with a rock from Iceland and some ash in the thing.

And you, I think you sent me a nice little card and you said, now you have a rock that belongs to two continents at the same time. And I love that rock. I use it all the time. Um, but yeah, the book that you sent me was a book about women in geoscience. so I know that this is a really important thing to you.

Do you have [00:57:00] thoughts on what can be done to increase representation, I guess, in the geosciences?

Erica Dalman: Yeah, so I think, you know, from the Geoscience Center as a whole, well, I think, you know, it starts as, as girls, right, and getting young, kids just getting exposure to sciences and, you know, supporting the public education system and really just, having programs for, for girls.

And I think, oftentimes. I was listening to something like this recently where I was saying that girls want everything to [00:57:30] be, or often times need to be perfect in their solutions and what they do. And science is so much about just testing things and you're probably going to be wrong more often than you're right.

And so, I think... Evaluating how, as we, as, as adults, how we respond to kids when they fail at something, right? I think, subconsciously we probably have some biases of we respond differently to when a boy does it to, to a girl. So I think early on probably just instilling the bravery and, taking risks [00:58:00] and we might not have all the answers, right?

But we're testing different things.

Chris Bolhuis: That is an unbelievable statement, uh, because I find that to be true, Erica. So that is so true with the girls that I have in class, they do, they're perfectionists, so you're saying that they, that it needs to be encouraged that science doesn't work that way. And that's okay.

very

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah. I mean, especially that transition between, I mean, this is something that this is the, we have these conversations about, increasing the diversity of the geosciences every, every [00:58:30] month, every week in our position at Penn state. Right. It's a big, a big, um, a big problem and a big, a big, thing that we want to tackle.

But think you're exactly right. Like on average, there are, uh, Some differences in the sort of approaches and then whether those are like social differences that are instilled at an early starting age, but because you see, people who get really good grades and maybe experiences, uh, Erica going to graduate school, it's like, it's not just more school.

You have to be uncomfortable not knowing the answer in geology, especially is this really, [00:59:00] we're not doing like, you know, Very hypothesis driven tests all the time. It's a lot more like artistic. You see some data and how could we interpret it? What's the simplest of five potential interpretations?

it's uncomfortable for people who are very engineering minded, like equations and like sort of a really solid answer all the time. It can be uncomfortable. So I think that the way you phrase that's really well put, I think being uncomfortable with. Some uncertainty and some risk or some, I don't know what the phrase is, but, um, those aspects

might be important too.

And

there's a lot to be [00:59:30] done on hiring

practices and anti bias training too, like all that plays in here too. Like, I'd be curious your thoughts

about those initiatives.

Erica Dalman: no, for sure. I mean, I think, we've seen, I think some, you know, greater uptick, in the, and I guess speaking just to the oil and gas industry of, okay, having these conversations of, yeah, what does it mean to have these bias interrupters? And, We're at a point where there's so much data around this, right?

There's so many studies where if you send a resume with the name Bob and it's that same resume and then [01:00:00] you send it with the name Jane, right? Bob is gonna get a lot more callbacks than, than Jane, right? No other merit other than we just, once we read that name, right? Like our thinking kind of starts to shift and so there's enough data and people doing this work in and now of trying to, okay, how can we objectify things more, remove our biases and men and women have that biases, right?

It's not, um, we all have those biases. And so I think really embracing that and, and, and leaning with, [01:00:30] curiosity that, okay, I, I want to think that I can objectively look at something, the reality is I can't, right? And so what are ways that I can, try and stop those biases? And so whether that's ensuring that we have a diverse pool from the beginning and, you know, there are a lot of women in, in geoscience.

We just need to find them, right? If you're only recruiting from a certain school or from a certain, advisor, their pool, right? You're going to be more limited. And so I think being really, pointed on that, but I think the big, what the, the biggest challenge that I've seen, I think [01:01:00] the entry level, we're still pretty good about having a diverse pool, you know, representative of what the, what the mix is at the, at the university level.

Okay. We're getting that mix into. It's really kind of that early progression where things kind of start to, to separate. and I've leaned heavily on the work, McKenzie and Company does a annual report, Women in the Workplace. Every year across all industries and so this isn't really just for oil and gas But really [01:01:30] those initial promotions whether that's not necessarily into management, but just kind of career progressions.

Look, I think the the latest statistic was that for every hundred men that are promoted into the next level of management 87 women are And then that's even less for women of color, right? And so it really is that initial and it's not because of lack of ambition or, or competency, right?

I think there's a lot of those biases still come to play. So we. often will, men tend to be [01:02:00] promoted or, or given the benefit of the potential, right? Oh, that person has that, guy has great potential, whereas women need to kind of prove themselves that they've done it before getting the, the next step.

and there's also, you know, just kind of almost little things of, women tend to be interrupted more often in meetings than men, or they might say, have a great idea, and then the man in the room repeats it and that's who we remember said it, right? So there's all these little things that If you don't stop and think about it and look at the [01:02:30] data, you know, you don't think that that's happening, right?

Like, oh no, I try to think of myself as a very logical person, I'm just trying to evaluate what the best, idea is, or who had the best proposal for certain things, But there's enough data and research now and we see that play out that there, there are other things going on, other subtleties, in our daily interactions in the workplace that, unfortunately don't, don't equate to equal progression.

And so I think companies like oil and gas companies, but really across, [01:03:00] all industries, corporate America, education, medicine, really understanding, okay, what is the data telling us? And what can we do to mitigate that? and I think we really need to have a concerted effort, right, not just saying, Oh, well, if the pace of change, if we just let things roll on how they're going, I think, I don't know what the latest statistic is, but it's like 300 years to achieve, Equality in the workplace of both pay and representation, and so we can't just let time [01:03:30] do its thing, right?

I think companies really need to be, Concerted and, and trying to get, it's in their best interest, right? It's in our best interest to try to get the most, diverse pool, to get the best ideas, right? It's a complex world. the oil and gas industry is changing as we've talked about. Everything, right?

The world is changing and we need the best and brightest minds to, to solve the, the complex issues.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah. For sure. I like that.

Chris Bolhuis: Jesse,

very, very well thought out answer. Um, my mind was going again, a thousand miles an hour listening to what you're [01:04:00] saying. And, and, Jesse, I have a question for you. cause you, I imagine you do a lot of this kind of, these are discussions that your department has or your, university has, right?

Jesse,

a lot of this. kind of thing.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah. Yeah.

there's still work to be done everywhere, but I think we'd, we'd consider ourselves at Penn State, certainly working on them actively in, in many ways. Both, gender bias and racial biases and things like that. So it's definitely something that we take, you know, pretty seriously and comes up in, uh, hiring [01:04:30] decisions, rewriting CVs, you know, if things like, uh, looking at grad student applications, okay, let's make rubrics.

Rubrics are really good for trying to fight these biases where you like, you know, put numbers to these things, which kind of help fight the implicit bias type thing. so yeah, I mean, there it's, it's definitely in the, uh, In the, in the, in the frontal lobe of the department, I guess, you're actively thinking about it and doing things.

Um, so it's interesting to hear perspective, Eric on, on sort of the hiring practices as well. or the promotion practices, I guess, more [01:05:00] importantly, it sounds like than the hiring practices. As far as interrupting it. So, I mean, Chris interrupts everybody, myself. And so I don't, I don't, he doesn't, he's not biased in his interruptions.

He's just always trying to get a word in. So

Chris Bolhuis: then? Okay, well then on that note.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: he, he, you know, he interrupts everybody. So

Chris Bolhuis: Hey, come on now. Come on. That, that was an unfair shot,

Jesse.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: shots across the bow. You're right.

Chris Bolhuis: Jesse, on that note, why don't you go ahead and, uh, throw out the last question

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah, [01:05:30] well, I mean, Erica, really, thanks for all of your time. This has been great to have you here, but we have to end with our normal last question, which is what has been your best day as a geoscientist?

Erica Dalman: Man, um, probably defending my master's thesis.

yes, I think that was, very, yeah, fulfilling, uh, a lot of the hard work that went into it, and, high pressure, kind of high stakes environment, as well I think. very satisfactory, finishing that, and then

probably the next

Dr. Jesse Reimink: can you, real quick, before we move on to that, I [01:06:00] want to, can you like paint a picture for what this looks like for some people who don't, maybe don't know what the, the high pressure situation, like, can you kind of give us what, what it was like, what your feelings are like, and what the, what it was like in the room when you did this, because I don't think a lot of people

know what defending a thesis, you know, actually entails.

Erica Dalman: kind of the, the lead up to it was, was the most, um, intense, right, so the actual, did your, finishing your research, you know, in the beginning, it's like, okay, I can start all this data, do all this analysis, but then at some point, like, okay, you really need to put this all together, [01:06:30] what are the key learnings, what are you, you know, I can't think of the word in English, but what are you, contributing to science?

and so really that, that lead up of getting this on paper, writing, uh, it was the longest, you know, document I'd ever written in paper, and then, very formal, at the time, kind of a formal presentation, and it was in, in person, so getting all the slides together. and really not knowing what kind of questions you're going to get from the professors, right?

So you've got your main advisor and then the, committee that's, that's associated with [01:07:00] that. And so, I think at that point the actual presentation

was since this was a master's, I think it was 25

minutes.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: That's what ours are for masters. And was it public? Like, could anybody join it or was it private? Just your committee, you in a

room with your

committee.

Erica Dalman: could, join the presentation

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Gotcha.

Erica Dalman: private for the, for the Q&

A afterwards.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah. And then how long

was the Q and a like couple hours or something like that? You know, an hour or two,

Erica Dalman: no, I think, I think probably 30 minutes, maybe an hour for master's, yeah. Um, so certainly [01:07:30] it would be different, yeah, for defending your, your PhD thesis. but yeah, I mean, being in, like, not, not knowing what kind of questions you're going to ask.

how well did I really understand what I, what I did? and that, you know, hanging your degree on that, right? Because as you were talking earlier, once you get into graduate school, it's not just, okay, did I complete this course and pass the test? Like, it is a lot more critical thinking and

and putting, piecing things together.

So, um, yeah, a little bit higher, higher

pressure.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: it's an interesting thing, because I always, everybody who's gone through it, like you, probably, on the other side of it, [01:08:00] you probably tell people, you're stressing yourself out too much about it, maybe, about the defense, like, it's a very stressful, thing to go in and you defend is the right word.

You have to defend what you wrote in your thesis, right? And people are going to ask you questions and kind of press you on it. And it's easy on the other side to say, Oh, it's not that big of a deal. don't worry about it. You're, you're a great student. You're doing fine. This is, you know, my students are all very good.

And so I'm like, Oh, you're, you're good. You're going to be okay. It's going to be stressful, but you're going to be okay. but it doesn't click that they're going to be okay until [01:08:30] you're okay. It's one of these weird things. Like until you're on the other side of it, it's super stressful and you just.

but then I remember after I defended it, it was sort of this big, it was a big relief, and then I thought, a week later, I was like, oh yeah, I was worked up about something, like, I, I really, I, I was overly worked up about it, like, I was, why was I so stressed, you know, I don't know if you had the same sort of feeling about that, but, what

Erica Dalman: Yeah, I mean. And I think now the more removed I am, from my experience in, in academia, like, I don't know, I think it also is like, is that the [01:09:00] best model too, right? Like, does it need to be so pressure on like, okay, this one presentation, and if you've done all the work and you've written the paper or whatever, right?

Like there might be other ways to, uh, to do things too. But yeah, I, I agree that, okay, once I, once I was over it, I was like, okay, no, like, I didn't know what I was doing. This was a great

presentation.

Chris Bolhuis: Well, Jesse, perhaps calling it defense is not maybe the right way if you want to

alleviate some pressure. I mean, the

Dr. Jesse Reimink: I I, know, I know. I, I, I agree. And I agree. It's not, a lot that [01:09:30] there's, uh, better ways to, to do things, but I think, you know, back to your point about what the value of a degree is, there is something to, um, there's something to writing something and defending why you wrote that having somebody ask you, why did you say this?

Why did you interpret it this way? And you having the ability to articulate that to them, there is value in that skill set. And, It does not need to be with, like, four professors in a room under super high pressure situation, right? you know, we can change [01:10:00] that aspect, but keeping some of the aspects of... some of the things that come out of that are some of the skill sets that you develop in preparation for that are really valuable. you know, even just like testing yourself about why did I write this? I'm going to have to defend it. So you have to think through it and you work through it when you're writing.

just having the defense hanging there. forces you to do that internally a bit, which is valuable. So I agree. It could be modified. I don't, it sucks, but I don't have a great like alternative, helps to alleviate some of these

Erica Dalman: And I think a lot of it, [01:10:30] depending on, you know, the type of person, the type of professors, uh, that you have there. Right. I think there's some that are very. I am, like, the only person that knows about this, right, it could be academia, it could be a very, like, I am the expert in this.

And as a student, like, that's very high pressure that you're coming up against the whole scientific community, right? Versus coming from a perspective like you, Jessie, of, okay, yes, I want to see my students, like, test their knowledge and kind of more of a, a safe environment,

really, right? A

scientifically safe environment versus [01:11:00] those, like, huge power

Dr. Jesse Reimink: for sure somebody who's trying to like cut you down because they don't like your advisor They don't like you or something I mean that's bullshit But if you have like what I what we try and do is be like, you know We're gonna push you because you're good and you deserve that's what you need to be done right now We're gonna push you and uh, but we're all supporting you and we're all helping you and sort of gunning for you So, um, maybe it's a bit healthier approach But

Erica Dalman: yeah, for sure.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: there's definitely horror stories for sure

Chris Bolhuis: Well, Erica, we have to let you go because you have a birthday to go [01:11:30] celebrate for your one year old daughter, right?

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh man, I'm just looking at the time, we're like, twice as long as we promised we'd be. Sorry.

Thank you so

much

for,

Chris Bolhuis: But

Dr. Jesse Reimink: thank you so much for, uh, for giving us your time, Erika. This was a super interesting conversation and, uh, and we loved it. This was great.

Erica Dalman: Thanks so much, Jessie, Chris, and I hope, yeah, this will be interesting for people to listen in and get a variety of, geoscience experience and exposure.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Absolutely.

Absolutely will. And we'll,

we'll, we'll see you, uh, we'll see you again soon.

Erica Dalman: Alright. thanks.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Erika. [01:12:00]

Jesse Reimink

Explore or Optimize? Interview with Erica Dalman

The Geology of Copper

Chris and Jesse Finally Agree

PlanetGeo Podcast