What’s Inside That Rock? Rock Man Ethan Penner
Dr. Jesse Reimink: [00:00:00] Welcome to Planet Geo, the podcast where we talk about our amazing planet, how it works, and why it matters to you. Hey everyone. Today we had the [00:00:15] great pleasure of interviewing Ethan Penner. Ethan is a geoscience communicator with an emphasis on social media, and it's probably most well known for creating a series of TikTok and Instagram videos. Uh, Kind of very fun and very funny, and where he bashes open [00:00:30] rocks and finds what's inside. And it's called What's Inside that rock. So you just gotta really check it out. You can find Ethan. He's at Rockman, Ethan on all the social medias. Apart from Twitter. At Twitter, he is at Rockman underscore Ethan. And this conversation was really interesting. [00:00:45] We covered lots of stuff regarding social media, traditional education. The origin story of Ethan's channels and his background, and I think you'll enjoy it. Before we get to the episode, you can find out more about [00:01:00] us@planetgeocast.com. That's our website there. You can support us. You can find all of our transcripts and learn more about us. you can also follow us on the social medias. We're at Planet Geo Cast and please send us an email, planet geo cast gmail.com. There you can send us emails for us [00:01:15] or our guests. Last thing, if you wanna learn more about minerals, we talk a lot about mineral identification in this episode if you wanna learn more about the basics of minerals, Basically all the content you would get in an introductory college Geology class. You can go to our Camp Geo conversational textbook, [00:01:30] which is the first link in the show notes there. Just do a simple social login, no credit card required, and you can access a bunch of audio and images and gifts all integrated together to help you learn about minerals and rocks and plate tectonics. So if you [00:01:45] have any questions, please send us an email and we hope you enjoy this interview with Ethan. welcome to Planet Geo, Ethan, we're very happy to have you here and, uh, we're very excited to talk to you. Uh, Rockman Ethan, here we go. This is very exciting. Welcome.[00:02:00]
Chris Bolhuis: I can't wait. Let's go.
Ethan Penner: I'm super happy to be here. Thank you guys again. I really appreciate it.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah, no, this is gonna be really exciting. I mean, we, we like, um, you know, Chris and I, uh, well, I can't speak for Chris, but I, I don't really exist in the TikTok sphere. And so it's, it's all very new to [00:02:15] me and I'm a little bit of an old guy. Uh, and it, it's kind of
Chris Bolhuis: I'm 50. Do you think I exist on TikTok? Like really?
Dr. Jesse Reimink: know. You're, you're, you're a little bit more hip than me sometimes, Chris. I don't really know.
Ethan Penner: I see a wide, a wide array of, people of all ages on TikTok. You'd be surprised. There's [00:02:30] people who are 15, people who are 60. It's, it's all over the
Ethan Penner: place.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, that's, that's great.
Chris Bolhuis: as you know, Ethan, I was on it because I had to do my research on you, but yeah, I don't live on Tic-Tac a whole lot, but
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh,
Ethan Penner: Oh, it's a good thing. It's a good thing that you don't live on TikTok. It's a, it's a hectic place
Ethan Penner: sometimes.
Chris Bolhuis: [00:02:45] Well, we're gonna talk about that a little bit today. I think. So. Hey Ethan, let's go ahead and get started. We always start off
Chris Bolhuis: with this traditional question about
Chris Bolhuis: what got you into geoscience. Was there this moment that happened to you because Jesse and I each have that moment in our [00:03:00] lives.
Chris Bolhuis: What was it for you that got us into this awesome science?
Ethan Penner: You know, it really is a great, great area of, of study. And honestly, when I was growing up, I did not like earth sciences up until I got to high school. I liked marine
Ethan Penner: [00:03:15] biology. I liked anything I have to do with animals. And I think the aha moment was realizing that I wasn't good at that, even though I wanted to be.
Ethan Penner: I, I tried as hard as I could and I, I got to high school and
Ethan Penner: I took an earth science class. I
Ethan Penner: had a [00:03:30] wonderful, teacher and I just knew it. I knew how to identify some minerals. I knew how the
Ethan Penner: earth worked. I got it. And I said, okay, this is what I'm
Ethan Penner: gonna stick with unless I find, you know, some other area like
Ethan Penner: physics or, or chemistry.
Ethan Penner: And I realized that I hated chemistry. [00:03:45] Um, and, uh, I stuck with it And From a young age. my uncle was a, a geologist. I think he still is a, a, some, some
Ethan Penner: form of geologist, but he basically, you know, helped me get a box of rocks in front of me and just, I, I stuck with
Ethan Penner: [00:04:00] that. I kept going, I kept collecting rocks.
Ethan Penner: But, you know, I think really the, the
Ethan Penner: appeal of geoscience is just that
Ethan Penner: there's such a, it's, it's the world that you're living in. It's not, you know, an animal that you have to see, that you might not be able to
Ethan Penner: observe. You can observe geology all [00:04:15] around you, which
Ethan Penner: is what makes it so exciting
Ethan Penner: just to go out into your backyard and see what's around you in the world.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah.
Chris Bolhuis: awesome. So you are you from New York? Ethan?
Ethan Penner: I am from New York. Yes.
Chris Bolhuis: Okay. So, and we talked about this with groovy geologists
Chris Bolhuis: too, that New York [00:04:30] is one of the few states that actually has a really well
Chris Bolhuis: established earth science program for middle
Chris Bolhuis: school and high school, and, and that's not a common thing. So, very cool.
Chris Bolhuis: Yeah.
Ethan Penner: I know both of us talked about how we wish that [00:04:45] we had even
Ethan Penner: more of high school so that people can get inspired earlier on. But I, I'm definitely grateful for the education that I received both in high school and, and, uh, college, how excited and passion, Northeast geologists are, to, to get people learning.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: [00:05:00] Yeah, I mean, it's a great, uh, you know, growing up in, in Michigan where I grew up, geology was not in the public mind, very readily. Like there's no real industry in Michigan and there hasn't been for a long time. But now living in Pennsylvania where, you know, the, the geosciences play a major role in the [00:05:15] economy of Pennsylvania and New York and, and this whole northeast region, uh, it's definitely a, a different mindset where it's much more like socially acceptable to be a geologist in some way, shape or form. So, did you Ethan, go into college knowing you wanted to be a [00:05:30] geologist? Because I, I definitely did, cuz I had crystal ice in high school and that was the aha moment for me. But I knew I what I wanted to do when I went to college, which I think. I, you know, I would've taken as many geology classes as, as they would've allowed me. but I went to a [00:05:45] liberal arts college, so I had to take, you know, like, the classics and the Survey of Jazz, which I really didn't want to take, but was actually good for me. So, like, how did you, uh, yeah, how did you approach college and then what did you, where did you go for your masters and how did that sort of transition work for you?[00:06:00]
Ethan Penner: So, yeah, I actually did go into college knowing I wanted to do geology, I was open to other options. I, you know, I took different types of classes in my freshman year and, at a certain point I said, this is the point of no return. I'm just gonna commit to geology.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: How, [00:06:15] what, what year were you, when you kind of hit that point?
Ethan Penner: I think it's, it's the year like of, of, uh, when I was a sophomore that they kind of, my, it was when I, I transitioned from having, so I went to Bingington University, um, and the, the STEM College and the Arts College was the Harper [00:06:30] College of Arts and Sciences. So I went to a generic advisor for that. Uh, and they would
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Uh, just any like general science advisor like you, you weren't dealing with a geologist necessarily.
Ethan Penner: exactly, yeah. And, and so they just, they knew the core classes that [00:06:45] I needed. They knew that what the, they had like the, the website in front of 'em that, the portal of all the requirements, but they didn't know what was best for me as a geology major. And so sophomore year, I was, I realized that that happened and I realized that they [00:07:00] didn't know exactly what I needed to do. And so I met with the geology advisor and at that point I said, okay, yep, this is, I'm going full into this. but I think you asked another question. I forget what it
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Uh, uh, more about kind of your masters. Like how did you, [00:07:15] you know, how did you decide you wanted to go to grad school? I, I think a lot of our listeners would, be interested in, in this sort of making those career, uh, decisions, you know, how did you approach that, when you had finished or when you're finishing your undergrad degree? Uh, what was that decision [00:07:30] like and how did you think?
Ethan Penner: yeah. I got very lucky because, I went to the same, uh, university BA University for my master's. I knew pretty much in my junior year into senior year that, getting a master's was what I wanted. I didn't think I wanted to [00:07:45] get a PhD because I knew of the, time commitment that was going to take, uh, you know, between
Chris Bolhuis: and
Chris Bolhuis: you didn't want to get overeducated either. You know, I know what that's like. Uh, you know, you and I are both looking at one of those right now,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah, Yeah, yeah,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: That's right. Good decision. [00:08:00] Good decision.
Ethan Penner: I know many people who, who have gotten PhDs and, and you know, they, some speak very highly on it. Some say it's a very tough and you have to sacrifice a lot in your schedule. And I said, you know what, I'll go to grad school. I got my master's just enough so I can get the advantage in [00:08:15] workforce. but you know, not everyone gets to do that. Not everyone gets to go to the same college. And I also went through a a special program for Binghamton where you started your masters in your senior year, and then you only technically had one year of grad school.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, nice. So it's one of these four plus one [00:08:30] kind of programs.
Chris Bolhuis: Oh, wow. I've never heard of that before. What, Jesse, what do you think about that? Like, you're, you're okay. You're a doctor, so go ahead. What do you
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I mean, I, so I'll be curious, Ethan, so what, um, how did your senior year differ from other people in your, grade [00:08:45] level in undergrad, like under undergrads who were not in this four plus one program? And then how did your master's year differ from other master's students? I'd be curious about those two.
Ethan Penner: I didn't get to enjoy my senior year. That's what happened.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, okay.
Ethan Penner: but, [00:09:00] uh, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah. Yeah. No, that, I mean, I think that's
Chris Bolhuis: No you're not. You're not kidding at all. What are you talking about, Ethan?
Chris Bolhuis: You meant that
Chris Bolhuis: that's the most truthful thing you said so far.
Ethan Penner: It was, it was definitely a stressful year because, you know, [00:09:15] everyone else was saying, oh, I'm applying to these jobs. And I said, you know what? I'm just getting ready. I'm just ramping up everything. obviously you don't take as many classes in your, grad school years as you do undergrad cuz you are focusing on. But [00:09:30] people who, go to the two, uh, two year master's programs or the, three to six year, uh, PhD programs, depending on where you go and to alternate universities, you know, it's very, it's a much more stressful process and it all depends on where, connections come from, [00:09:45] um, who you're, who you're applying to, the timeframe. You can take a gap year too, but mine was very just like, boom, boom, boom, boom. Like, that happens. This happens, you know, everything's connected. I never really got to take a break. but I'm okay with that because I, I was ready. I [00:10:00] knew I wanted to do it. Um, so when you're going to, uh, graduate school, you just have to be ready to take that step and, prepare for what's gonna come along with it. Don't go in thinking that, you know, oh, I'll just see what happens. You, you really have to understand that, not that risk, [00:10:15] but that commitment that you're putting on
Dr. Jesse Reimink: it sounds like for somebody like you and, and for somebody in your situation, it was a great decision. Uh, so Chris, back to your question about kind of what I think about it, I think it depends who it is. Like for some people, I think Ethan, it sounds like this is a great place for you. Cuz you [00:10:30] knew exactly what you wanted to do, you knew you wanted to do it when you went into undergrad, really you could make that commitment. And if you're kind of business-like about it, that can be great. For some people, I think it's extremely beneficial to move from their undergrad institute and to go somewhere else and get a [00:10:45] different network and get plugged into a different community. And, and yeah, you spend two years instead of five, uh, you know, well, I guess six total years instead of five total years. But, you know, for some people it's definitely worth it to do that. But that, that's really interesting. I I like that.
Chris Bolhuis: Yeah, it's a [00:11:00] really, I've never heard of it before actually. Uh, Ethan. All right. we are both really interested, in your thoughts. the early classes in your undergrad geology degree. and I'm talking about like the, the first, maybe that, intro physical geology class that you took and [00:11:15] maybe the second class beyond that, because, we're kind of losing a lot of majors, potential majors anyway to geology in environmental sciences. And so, know, you're in the geoscience communication field. That's what you do. [00:11:30] Do you think that we're keeping up, do you know what I mean when I ask that?
Ethan Penner: yeah, I, I, a lot of my friends, uh, will end up actually midway through their geology track saying, oh, I switched to environmental sciences, or I switched to engineering, uh, while having the, the geology [00:11:45] background. And I don't think that's a, necessarily a, a bad thing. You can know, you can have, environmental geology, engineering geology if that's what you want to do, but I do understand. The classes I took as an undergrad in like the, the intro level courses. I, I, the first [00:12:00] class I ever took for geology was, geology in the solar system. That's what it was. Uh, my professor was, uh, named David Jenkins and he was a great professor. it was a, it was a lecture hall, class size, probably like 50 just basic geologic, uh, uh, principles gone [00:12:15] over in the lab. But then the class itself was a geology and, different planets like Mars, uh, uh, the moon, and I think that we are keeping up and I think it's only gonna get better from here. I think the, the [00:12:30] classroom is a way that you can learn the necessary stuff, but for the real world applications and, and to see how people are. using geology. That's where science communication comes in. And, and paying attention to [00:12:45] podcasts or paying attention to videos, that's where I see a lot of feedback of people saying, I had a quiz, next week and it's on mineral identification and I'm looking at all your videos. And then they'll comment again in a week saying, I did [00:13:00] really well on my mineral ID quiz, thanks to your videos.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, nice.
Chris Bolhuis: Right,
Ethan Penner: And it's, so,
Chris Bolhuis: see.
Ethan Penner: I was just gonna say, and you, you see a lot of stuff through social media communication, you don't see in the, in the classroom. And, a lot of the time [00:13:15] the professor will help you to an extent, but he won't necessarily understand you and, communicate to you in a way that. you might see on TikTok or Instagram or YouTube or podcasts that you can relate to and be more comfortable, [00:13:30] you know, maybe listening to while you're eating dinner or just in your in a comfortable space.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I think, you know, that's a really interesting point you bring up actually, Ethan, I, because at the moment, or for the last, you know, many years I've been teaching the intro level class and there's like [00:13:45] 220 students in my section and it's impossible to provide that really like, personal level of education and, and you know, communicate all the individual problems and work through every problem set with each student, right? =Like, it would require all of my time, all the time [00:14:00] to do that. But with this social media, which I want to get into next, but with the social media thing, people kind of can browse on their own and kind of work down these paths and re-watch things that they need to re-watch and skip over ones that they already understand. So it's kind of this [00:14:15] like, Unique personalized education, even though it's not really personalized, but it kind of feels like it in a way. That's, and I think that's just what I'm thinking about as you're describing this, is that that's a really interesting, that's a really interesting take you have on [00:14:30] this and how, how there's like an interplay between the two, or an interaction between these two mechanisms, I guess. That's really interesting. I'll have to think about that a little
Ethan Penner: And I think just add on to that, with the classes themselves, I wouldn't necessarily the internal battle of, of [00:14:45] changing versus not changing. If I could change something, I wish that I maybe could learn more about this specific areas of geology earlier on, uh, rather than just, , you know, oh, mineral identification. But also let's just basically touch [00:15:00] on like, I wish I could have had a, a crash course of structural or, a, you know, a basic covering of, of sedimentology and stratigraphy because it wouldn't have Dissuaded me from taking geology. I think I would've just [00:15:15] gotten more spurred on and had that more, you know, young energy of like a, I'm still fresh in college and I, you know, the later on you take classes, the more you're just kinda like, all right, I'm getting into junior or senior year. Losing some of the motivation of, of, taking and, [00:15:30] and performing in classes, you know, freshman, you're, you're always willing to, to work hard on projects you know, I think with that energy and with that inspiration of the, specific classes, it could have changed. Not [00:15:45] necessarily. I'm not speaking just for myself, but maybe other people could have relate to that and say, you know, I wish I took mineralogy as a freshman crash course rather than a specific, uh, difficult 300 course.
Chris Bolhuis: Yeah. I agree, Ethan. I think, [00:16:00] um, I guess it's kind of disjointed. There's, I think a lot of people that go through and, and graduate with a BS in, geology don't understand maybe all of the connections that, each thing has to one another. I think maybe that's what you're [00:16:15] speaking to. and I agree. I, I just. I mean, you have gained a tremendous traction on TikTok and Instagram with these videos on, you know, what's inside that rock, you know,
Ethan Penner: That was pretty good. That was Perfect
Chris Bolhuis: Hey, [00:16:30]
Chris Bolhuis: and then, hold on. I got another one. What's inside that rock? The last part. That's awesome. It's, it's strangely addicting. Um, but it is, it's great. I love it. And I just, I don't know, I don't want to, you know, belabor the point, but it [00:16:45] just makes me think, Jesse, you just said that. It makes me think about things maybe a little differently. There's a tremendous amount of traction and, and this, uh, natural kind of curiosity about our planet. And you're tapping
Chris Bolhuis: it, you're
Dr. Jesse Reimink: let's put it this way, Chris. you don't have [00:17:00] 1.8 million people following your lectures in that you know, that you're giving in geo in your geology class, let's put it that way. So, yeah. Yet, exactly. So, Ethan, I, okay. I want to kind of come back to the, this maybe the origin story of, of really why we're talking here is [00:17:15] you, you have a lot of followers, like I said, 1.8 million, I think. Is that what it is right now on TikTok? Somewhere in that ballpark. Uh, you know, enough where it's massive, the number doesn't matter anymore. I, I guess I'm curious in the origin here, like how. How did this come about? Was there a moment when you were [00:17:30] like, oh shit, this is actually like I could actually, grow this into something. and how did you, you know, did you come at this with a really strategic thing or did you kind of stumble upon it by happenstance? what was the story behind this a little bit? And, and it's, uh, you are at [00:17:45] Rockman, Ethan on Instagram and TikTok, if we hadn't
Ethan Penner: Instagram, TikTok, um, YouTube as well. Not Twitter, though. Someone got that before me somehow.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Ah, bummer. Ah, dang it. You can't buy it off him.
Ethan Penner: I know the account's been inactive since [00:18:00] 2013, so maybe they had a good idea before I
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, irritating, irritating .
Ethan Penner: But yeah. COVID 2020. That was the, the origin of, my series when I had started TikTok, I. was creating silly videos before [00:18:15] that, but nothing really that I wanted to, you know, keep doing. I was just bored. And after my, junior year, fall semester, or actually no senior year, fall semester, that's when it happened. was it then I see I lose track of this stuff. It's, it's
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I mean, the last like [00:18:30] two years have just blended together
Chris Bolhuis: a blur.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Right. So,
Ethan Penner: and so.
Chris Bolhuis: you turn 50. Then it just, oh Yeah. Hey, wait
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Okay. Old
Chris Bolhuis: Ethan. Holy shit. Ethan, did you just say that?
Ethan Penner: No, I didn't mean that. [00:18:45] No, because people
Chris Bolhuis: all right. Hey, Ethan, has been nice having you on the episode. Um,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: yeah, That's a wrap. All right. That,
Chris Bolhuis: Uh, yeah.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: you can, you can follow him to go to Twitter. Go to go to Rockman Ethan on Twitter and you can follow him there.
Chris Bolhuis: Wow.
Ethan Penner: I, I'm one of those people who just [00:19:00] kind of has like the out outward reactions and then doesn't really think about what they're saying beforehand.
Chris Bolhuis: okay. I'm not
Dr. Jesse Reimink: it up. As long as it's, as long as it's directed at Chris, it's
Ethan Penner: You know, if, if I could be doing this when I'm 50, that would be, that would be amazing. You know,
Ethan Penner: and I
Ethan Penner: think,
Chris Bolhuis: really old[00:19:15]
Ethan Penner: no, that is, that is young. And you still, if, if you're 50, if you look like you're 25, Chris
Chris Bolhuis: Oh yeah. Okay.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: okay. Please, please, please.
Chris Bolhuis: okay.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: All right. Back to the OR store. We're in covid, you know,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: 2020 or whatever.[00:19:30]
Ethan Penner: um, I think it was, yeah. So, senior year I knew that I, I had about a hundred followers on TikTok and I said, okay, I wanna do something with geology. I wanna combine my major with TikTok and see what I can do with it. Because I see a [00:19:45] lot of people in specific niches and saying, you know, maybe cooking or, or hiking or whatever. And it was something that I wanted to just say, you know, I didn't see any other videos of geologists on TikTok. I was like, maybe I'm the first. Who knows? [00:20:00] And I made the silly series, what's inside that rock? didn't start out with singing. I was not comfortable on TikTok singing yet. and I thought that it was gonna be maybe like five, 10 videos before it gained any traction. I wanted to go viral. That was, that was as simple as it was
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Okay, you kind of designed that with [00:20:15] the idea. So maybe you can give us just like a brief summary for those who have not seen it and who are probably gonna go on TikTok right after they listen to this podcast and go look it up. But what sort of, what's the theme? I mean, it's, it's a little bit self-explanatory, but,
Ethan Penner: Yeah. And, and that's the whole point, you know, just making sure people [00:20:30] can just listen to it and they, they still get a, a good, uh, experience. I start off with a little funny clip of myself doing something random. I, uh, find a rock. I say Today's rock, and I put it down, grab my hammer. [00:20:45] Either a, either a handheld rock pick or rock hammer. Or, uh, sometimes if there's a big rock, I take a sledgehammer out. People seem to like the sledgehammer a little bit more. Um, I put on my safety gear, safety goggles and, and gloves and, uh, crack it open, identify the [00:21:00] mineral. I
Chris Bolhuis: Ethan? No. Ethan. No. You always pat the rock. Ethan. You pat the rock. You give it a little love tap.
Ethan Penner: I, that's what I've been missing. You know, I've been, I've been wondering why none of my videos are, are topping the big, the big [00:21:15] numbers, and I'm just like, I stopped patting their rock. I have to show
Chris Bolhuis: Oh, you have to. Yeah. You gotta give a little love tap. Ethan, I take issue with some of your rock hammers. I mean your, your hammers. so I saw you try to bust one open with this little [00:21:30] finished nailer hammer. Like I'm thinking, what the hell is going on here, Ethan? You usually bust
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Chris. Chris. Calm down. Chris. Chris, Chris. Calm down. All right. All right.
Ethan Penner: No, he's got a point. He's got a point. You know, I, I have to know [00:21:45] my hammers better. I have to understand the, the ta the challenge, I'm,
Ethan Penner: and you know, people have duetted me sometimes they've showed themselves breaking rocks open in one hit and I'm like, listen, okay, this isn't a strength competition.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I mean, I must say, so it, okay, [00:22:00] so that's, so you thought about that thought, oh, this might be a hook, and, and you just went with it and it actually was like I think those are your most successful videos, right? I mean, well, successful, however we define successful. But those are some of your more popular videos. Is that true? Those,
Ethan Penner: Seems to be the, the more [00:22:15] preferred, uh, you know, if I deviate from that, people will say, you know, they'll just comment on a random video and say, what's inside that rock? And I'm like, I didn't post that today. But
Ethan Penner: it's funny because that's what they know. That's what they, they inter they assume and expect from me. But yeah, [00:22:30] and, after it went viral, I still did not want to, to go back on your previous point of when did I know that I wanted to keep going with this? I didn't want to. I, I did it for about a semester and then I stopped. I said, I am, I'm a senior in college. I need to finish this up. [00:22:45] and you know, I was just not very expecting. This to go anywhere. so I made some more videos when I could. I had about 50,000 to 75,000 followers in a, a couple months. But I said, you know, whatever [00:23:00] doesn't really need to do anything. I'm not expecting to be big on social media. And when I picked it up again last year in the winter, winter seems to be a good month for me. I get, or a good couple months, I just made another what's inside the rock saying, all right, let's return to [00:23:15] it. Let's get right back into it. Got 2 million likes. My channel exploded. And I said, okay, I guess this is what I'm doing now because they know me. They know what I am, they know what I'm doing. And, uh, and I had no issue with that. I think I [00:23:30] just never really assumed social media can be so powerful with, with science communication. And once I realized that you know, I connected with Kate, I connected with others, and I just went with the ball rolling there. And that's I found myself here.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: yeah. So, okay. There's so many
Dr. Jesse Reimink: [00:23:45] questions I have, but let Chris shut up and let me, uh, let me say
Dr. Jesse Reimink: something here
Chris Bolhuis: right. Hey,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: the, the,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: yeah, yeah. This.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Okay. I'll do this, uh, a little finger, finger raise, saying Chris. Chris. Chris, be quiet. I wanna say something. Um, I have bashed open many, many [00:24:00] rocks in my day, as has Chris. But yet still, for some reason, your videos are extremely entertaining to watch. they're very fun. I just find them extremely fun, even though, you know, I, I've broken open a lot of rocks too, and the little jingles. Great. So I have a lot of questions, but Chris, I interrupted you. [00:24:15] So I, I wanna know where the jingle came from though. Cause it's a great jingle. And actually, I had some of my wife's friends were visiting, uh, a couple weekends ago, and I was like saying, oh yeah, we're, we're gonna interview this guy, Ethan. Look at these videos. They're kind of fun. And then the whole rest of the weekend they were singing What's inside that rock for the [00:24:30] whole, every hike we're on, they'd pick up a rock and sing this. So you've become popular among the Yeah.
Ethan Penner: Listen, it's all about the, it's all
Ethan Penner: about
Dr. Jesse Reimink: but
Ethan Penner: spirit. He had the spirit behind.
Chris Bolhuis: Yeah. Well, I don't know. It's really not, but, okay. Ethan,
Ethan Penner: Chris does have perfect pitch though. I will
Chris Bolhuis: I, yeah. What's [00:24:45] inside that rock?
Ethan Penner: the theme itself came not from me, from my fans because I have the, the sound that I use, it's called Game Show Ring 30 by, uh, Fabrisio Alban. And it was designed, I [00:25:00] believe, as a ringtone. That's what the popular theory is. And he has a whole bunch of them. So I was using it just cause I wanted, I looked up game show sounds, and it was one of the ones I came up. I said, this is really catchy. I like this song. and I never sang it, I never sang it in the first year of doing it [00:25:15] because I just wanted to talk through it. I didn't realize that I, I wanted to sing on TikTok,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah,
Chris Bolhuis: That's, that's really funny to hear by, that's a funny thing to say.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah.
Ethan Penner: And during the second year, uh, uh, people would comment and saying, you know, [00:25:30] when you're playing that song, it sounds like the rhythm of the song can go with what's inside that rock. So I said, huh. I was listening to it. I was like, huh, da da da. What's inside that rock? And I was like, you know what it [00:25:45] does. that is incredible how I never thought about that. And I, I thanked them. I was like, you guys are, are incredible for realizing that. And I just went with it. From that point on, I didn't usually sing it in both the, intro and, and outro. But then someone pointed out to me again, they're [00:26:00] like, I think you should do it at the end and, and make it, uh, a little outro for it. I was like, what's, what's inside that rock? I was like,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah,
Ethan Penner: does it
Ethan Penner: again. Little rhythm. .And so that's just, it's a testament to how interactive my fan base was to, and I was so grateful for how they just [00:26:15] noticed that. And I was like, I asked them questions about how to improve my series. They, they make their opinions known. So without like the people who who follow me and who I'm mutuals with, I would be nowhere in my opinion.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: uh, okay, what of the platforms that. , well, which of the platforms is your favorite or, and [00:26:30] which are maybe the most powerful for you at the moment? And where do you see this going? we're what, a, a two years into this or maybe a year into it after you, you like re-pick it back up and, and you know, where do you envision this going for you, um, in the next [00:26:45] sort of several years? That's a
Ethan Penner: I always ask myself that. I always ask myself that, Jesse I wonder because it's social media is constantly changing and you never know what you're gonna get. , and obviously I have the 1.8 million, uh, followers on, on TikTok. [00:27:00] Um, that's where I got my, my start. then I moved on to Instagram, not because of, of a changing TikTok world, but because some people didn't have access to TikTok and they wanted to see my videos. So, I, I think TikTok is where I'm most well known. Instagram is where [00:27:15] I have the, most interactions and most solid interactions. just consistent because TikTok, it's really based on the algorithm. Uh, you could have 1.8 million followers and not have your videos shown to half of your following. And [00:27:30] it's, it's very annoying sometimes. But it's just the way that the app is designed with social media changing. I think that, knows, I could end up on more YouTube in the coming year. but I
Ethan Penner: think.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: like YouTube shorts and stuff like
Ethan Penner: Exactly. More [00:27:45] short form. The, but who knows what I'll be doing? Uh, short form is just definitely what I'm doing right now. what I'm gonna be doing in a, you know, 10 years or so before I, I started this, you know, I said I wanted to get an industry job. I wanted to, you know, use my master's to get a little bit ahead and, [00:28:00] uh, work and get a stable income, uh, doing some sort of geologic work, whether it be consulting or, working, uh, for another organization, maybe mining or, or, uh, hydrology. But now I have this and [00:28:15] I think to myself, what can I do with it where I'm still doing geologic work, I'm still helping the environment. And as a industry or or government professional would want to. , but I'm educating others and I'm [00:28:30] showcasing my work and I'm documenting it and interacting with people all across the world. And so that's where the, the fantastic thing about science communication comes in where people are looking for science communicators to do the work, but also document it [00:28:45] for their fans and their followings. And so I'm just taking it step by step. And I think that in, in 10 years, I want to have said that I have bettered the widespread public, and educated and helped them [00:29:00] understand geology if they haven't gotten to go to school for it. better than if I just took up an industry job and just wanted to work, uh, and, and, and by myself doing my own thing.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I think that's a totally worthy goal. Yeah, absolutely. I mean that, that's a great, um, [00:29:15] defining principle for the next 10 years. Yeah, absolutely.
Chris Bolhuis: do too. Because I think what you're doing, Ethan, is you're elevating in people's consciousness, the field of geology, we've got one planet. There's, there's no planet B, people need to [00:29:30] understand how this planet works so that we're better equipped to take care of it. That's really why Jesse and I started our podcast to begin with, is we care deeply about this, and you're going at this from a, different perspective, but your reach is [00:29:45] huge and I think it's incredible. I, I really do because. You know, through these shorts that you do, you're elevating just the consciousness of geoscience, which, I think is, is amazing. I really do.
Ethan Penner: And, and [00:30:00] seeing some of the comments that people still put on, on videos where they'll say, oh, there's no way that the rock is a million years old because the earth has only existed for 6,000 years. Or they'll say, well, you know, fossils can be 10,000 years old. And I'm like, [00:30:15] but this one was a million years old. And you know, it's, it's, not people with hate in their heart who comment this stuff on the beta. It's people who just think that they are correct, think that, the earth is flat or that the earth is hollow or that, you [00:30:30] can swim underneath the tectonic plate or something so random that you don't think about to teach in a, in a class that you can say, all right, I have a very silly platform right now where I don't make always serious videos. Let me make a funny video where I'm just saying, Hey, [00:30:45] can you swim under a tectonic plate? Can the earth be hollow underneath? And then you answer it. And then that's how you interact with people to answer their questions instead of, going up to an expert and saying, well, is this true? And they might be like, well, you know, let me just give you this whole spiel [00:31:00] about it. You know, it's very short form. That's what is
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I mean, but that, you know, I, I think you're exactly right that, it doesn't matter what the hook is, but there's a hook, and, you can explain really kind of deep, complicated or for some reason, controversial things. You can explain it in a casual way and, [00:31:15] and it's more effective, you know, it's completely more effective and, and approach it not with an adversarial, you know, approach. Like Chris and I, we, talk about this a lot. Every time we get together and have a couple beers is, you know, talk about. why it's such a heated debate, why it's so [00:31:30] contentious when, when a lot of these things is just like you can sit down and have a pleasant conversation about these things, right? And, explain to people who usually come from very different backgrounds, you know, why we think the way we do and how we understand what the interior of the earth looks like, for instance. you know, it doesn't [00:31:45] matter where your platform is, it takes all kinds. We gotta use all the available platforms. And what you're doing is, excellent, is really cool. So you probably get asked this question a lot, but what, what's your favorite thing you found inside of Iraq? I, in one of the videos? Maybe in one of the [00:32:00] videos, and then one you have, you don't have a video about that, uh, your best rock in your collection.
Ethan Penner: Good question. I go back and forth a lot because I made a video where I was, with Kate. She came up to Binghamton one time. We filmed what's Inside the Rocks, the most [00:32:15] popular, what's inside the rock on my, on my channel. and that was where I broke open a rock and I found Brachiopods inside and that was really cool. But there was a rocket broke open, uh, when I was at home. It was in the last year's winter term. and it broke it open and it [00:32:30] had on the outside, I have it right here, It was a kind of, uh, tannish color.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Okay. So the, the, through those on the podcast, we're looking at kind of a whiteish rock with kind of a brownish, tan, outer covering. And we're only looking at the outside right now,
Ethan Penner: [00:32:45] Yeah. So, and, and I would see these kinds of, uh, spots on the outside. I think this is actually probably, no, that's actually the inside of it. I'll describe it a little bit better detail. There were these brown spots.
Chris Bolhuis: aren't they?
Ethan Penner: So there, there were brown spots on the outside, and I said, those [00:33:00] can't be garnets. And I just, and it looked like, like pepperoni slices on this rock. And it was probably about, a foot in diameter. It was just like a round rock. And I was like, there's no way that I just found a rock with like these gars on the inside of it. And, um, I was like, all right, well, lemme just break it open and [00:33:15] see. And Almondine, gars are this specific, gars for my area and for, for New York because of, the Adirondacks. That's where they're most popular. But I will show you this, uh, of, of what I found. These are
Dr. Jesse Reimink: nice.
Ethan Penner: sine [00:33:30] garnets. Uh, and I'm 99% sure some, uncertainty because I'm not an expert with uncertain, but there were no other, uh, uh, garnet types or brown orangeish minerals I could find that matched this description. And so [00:33:45] that's what I went
Dr. Jesse Reimink: So these are like golf ball size, reddish to, uh, they look reddish on my screen, but I
Dr. Jesse Reimink: think, uh, kind of reddish
Dr. Jesse Reimink: to,
Ethan Penner: a little bit of brown to 'em.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: yeah. Yeah. Totally. Cool. Beautiful
Ethan Penner: it was, it was such a, an interesting find. Cuz [00:34:00] usually I just identify, you know, quartz biotite. But I post this video and they're like, how much is that worth? And I'm like, I don't know. I just found it like I, I'm not a, a gemologist. And so I actually got to interact with an actual gemologist on TikTok who was just like, oh, that looks like it could be [00:34:15] specialty, but if you send me a sample, I could confirm it. And I was like, no, they're mine. You're not touching any of them. And that's a good topic because uh, it helps me say don't take my interpretations as fact because I am not an expert meteorologist. [00:34:30] I didn't get my master's in that. I got it in tectonic and morphology. That was what I did for my master's thesis. I dealt with how earthquakes can affect a landscape. I didn't deal with how garnets form in a rock or how northeastern minerals form. I do this as a hobby in my [00:34:45] time and I'm obviously making a little bit of a career into it, but that's what it started out as. But this one was my favorite one because I was able to find this really kind of not super common mineral and I got to show it off. And part of the alert of what's inside the rock is saying, I'm breaking [00:35:00] this rock open. And it's not just me who's the first person who sees it. It's all of us who are seeing this rock opened up for the first time in millions of years. And so that's kind of a, a special thing, but my, one of my favorite rocks that I didn't, uh, put on what's inside that rock [00:35:15] is, a type of rock that I might, you might expect more of out west, since the Northeast is not necessarily tectonically active. It is a micro fault rock with, uh, bands of, of sedimentary rock, uh, layered on top of each other. It's [00:35:30] a brown rock, kind of small, but there's a crack for anyone who's, uh, listening to this, crack, going right through it. And you can see the offset. It's about half a centimeter of offset. Uh, but this actually came from my thesis study area, and it was actually like, I was like,
Chris Bolhuis: is where, [00:35:45] exactly.
Ethan Penner: central New York. It's, uh, if you know Saratoga Springs or Glens Falls, it's uh, in between that the McGregor, Saratoga, Boston Lake Fault system. That's where I'd conducted my, uh, research. And I was just basically looking to see if there were any offset, in, [00:36:00] um, The glacial and, fluvial. It means that river, river deposits that kind of sediment that was deposited on top of the bedrock. So this is the bedrock that I'm holding right now. but it was whether or not there were any, uh, indications of,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: that's a very, uh, very cool specimen right [00:36:15] there. Ab that's a totally cool one. I, I like that a lot. And I I, oh, tell me about it. You and me both, man. I mean, yeah. Chris has, Chris has a, uh, a fireplace that he made, uh, or a mantle behind the fireplace that he put [00:36:30] all of his rocks in. They're setting, you know, concrete, beautiful minerals. I mean,
Ethan Penner: so cool.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: and he built, uh, he's got a couple pillars. He's got a couple columns he's got this long driveway going back to his house. he's got these pillars of like all the Roxy's [00:36:45] collected.
Ethan Penner: That's fantastic. I'm jealous.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: it's totally great. I mean, it's like, uh, you know, hashtag goals. Um, but I, I wanna say something about mineral identification. You should not feel bad about this because one of my PhD advisors was, famous for always saying, I mean, this is a guy [00:37:00] who's been out in the field, seen tons and tons of rocks and identified tons and tons of minerals and he was always like, you know what, you're never sure of the mineral until you get it back into the lab. Like you, you really can't be that confident we're out in the field cuz a lot of minerals look very similar to one [00:37:15] another. So , I mean courts and felds bar, maybe we can do that fine. But the ones like spessartine and you don't know the spessartine content of these garnets, like no big deal. There's not many people who will so , you shouldn't feel
Chris Bolhuis: Jesse put me in the field with a group of students. I know that [00:37:30] shit a hundred percent
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah, . Yeah, that's right. When you're around people who don't know any better. Exactly. Right.
Ethan Penner: No. Yeah. And, and, uh,
Chris Bolhuis: uncertainty there, boy,
Ethan Penner: And it's interesting, so I, I've worked so much in the northeast that I'm just like, you know, [00:37:45] I see a maroon colored mineral. I'm like, it's garnet. I know that. I just dunno what type of garnet. Probably almandine, but there's a lot of uncertainty. But if I see quartz like I am the expert in quartz right cuz people will comment on my videos being like, all this guy [00:38:00] finds is chords. And I'm
Dr. Jesse Reimink: yeah. .Yeah. There's just a lot of quartz it where I am like, Sue me
Ethan Penner: exactly
Chris Bolhuis: so Ethan, I'm gonna, well, I'll change gears just a little bit maybe, so about your content and [00:38:15] you know, what you put out, which is a variety, and I want to get into that a little bit, but what are you most proud of in terms of what you produce?
Ethan Penner: the videos that I'm most proud of. Or I guess like you said, content cause it doesn't have to be videos. It's not [00:38:30] necessarily the videos themselves, cuz I like making people laugh. I like making people, happy people comment sometimes my videos are wholesome or, or funny or, you know, educational.
Ethan Penner: There's the three different really types of, of genres that I divide my videos into. [00:38:45] But I don't think it's about that. I think the videos that make me the most happy is when people will comment on it and say, I showed this video to my son, to my sister, to my [00:39:00] dad, to my professor, and they loved it.
Ethan Penner: They don't even have to say what they loved about it. I would just say to know that people are spreading the messages that I'm, I'm, putting out about geology and how important it is or maybe my, what's inside the rocks and how kids will [00:39:15] like, singing it and, and, and going out and collecting rocks.
Ethan Penner: Knowing that. I'm having an influence in these people's lives cause they don't have to, like my content, I, I've never asked anything from my followers, they could just see a video like it and move on. But [00:39:30] to know that people will share it and, and be so excited to, to share that experience with someone they're close with, it makes me so happy to know that, if I stopped doing my videos tomorrow, that's still would've happened and [00:39:45] that, and then my videos will still be there for people to share.
Ethan Penner: So, knowing that I've, I've had an impact in the scientific community regardless of the video itself. That's what makes this worthwhile
Dr. Jesse Reimink: that's really, that's really cool. I, I guess, can you give [00:40:00] us a little insight into what, your audience makeup is? If you know that, or who do you interact with? Maybe that's the best thing. Like, who are the types of people do you most commonly interact with and which
Ethan Penner: 26% from the United States. 19%. No, I'm kidding. I don't [00:40:15] know the exact numbers. Uh, I, I used to, I used to look at the analytics a lot, but I don't use it, use my analytics a lot anymore, just cause I, I've been so caught up with just, you know, answering people. People will say, you know, oh, I'm from Brazil, or, oh, I'm from the United States in [00:40:30] Florida, or I'm, you know, across the world in a different country in the, in the ocean. I'm on an oil rig. I have a wide range of, children. They aren't the ones who are, obviously, they don't have accounts. Uh, it's their parents who probably wa watch it most, but I'd [00:40:45] say mostly 18 to 25 year olds. it kind of drops off, to 26 to 35. 36 to 45. And then weirdly, after that, like 45 to to 50 range, it actually picks up a little [00:41:00] bit and people will, people 50 to, to 60 and 60 to 70 somehow are finding more enjoyment from it than people who are like 30 to 40. And I'm just like, what's wrong with you? Why are you not? I'm kidding, [00:41:15] but,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: why? What are. you doing here?
Chris Bolhuis: that. You are. What's the matter with you? Yeah.
Ethan Penner: But there's that. And then there's also a lot of different countries and I think it's interesting how people who are in the United States don't necessarily see my videos [00:41:30] a lot, but people who are in Germany, Poland, Brazil, Indonesia, I'll get comments all the time saying Much love from Malaysia. And I'm just like, what? Like how?
Dr. Jesse Reimink: great.
Ethan Penner: And, and that's a part of the thing. It's like, how am I impacting those people who [00:41:45] are, I don't, I've never even seen before. I've never been to Malaysia. But that's the wonderful thing about social media is that you don't have to go to these places. You can have that, connection that,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. You think so would you be willing to, to give us a little insight into. [00:42:00] The economics of this for you? Like, I mean, I guess one thing that comes to my mind is like, okay, 1.8 million followers sounds like a hell of a lot to me. is this what you're doing full-time right now? Like, is this sustainable for you at the moment or what, you know, I don't know. How does this work, I [00:42:15] guess,
Ethan Penner: TikTok and Instagram and YouTube are all very different in how they, reward. there are creators for the content they produce and the engagement they receive from it. it's, I think widely known at this point that in a kind of [00:42:30] ranking, YouTube is at the top for how much it, uh, pays its creators. TikTok is, third among those. Instagram is somewhere in between. and they all kind of use some sort of creator fund method, I believe. I'm [00:42:45] not sure if YouTube does. I'm new to YouTube, but I know TikTok, uh, has a creator fund. Instagram has a bonuses that they use. and I do earn money from that. I, started earning money on TikTok when I surpassed [00:43:00] 10,000 followers. but it's based on what I believe is per thousand views number multiplied by thousand views you get is the amount of money you get. I'm not sure what the rate is, but Instagram, I think maybe it's not as high of view count. Maybe it's about [00:43:15] per hundred views. and it's not full-time. Uh, I do not earn enough to, keep my myself afloat in this economy. But, I find things to do otherwise. But a lot of people, start to do sponsorships and I [00:43:30] kind of kept myself from doing that because that wasn't the goal originally. I wanted to just make content and, and I was just planning on saying, all right, well now I can't make content anymore because I need to actually support myself. So that's all I could offer. But [00:43:45] I think that. Going forward. A lot of people will possibly, including myself, do more of sponsorships to work with brands. But I think there's a push, for different platforms to reward creators better, uh, based on what their engagement is. [00:44:00] But I've done okay for myself, I've kept myself, I think, in the numbers that I'm, happy with, for, being paid by the, um, platforms. And I think that you can't expect much from social media because whether you're [00:44:15] putting two hours of, recording, two hours of editing into a video or recording a 32nd lip sync video, they could get the same amount of views. So it then comes down to what your connection and what your impact is. And so [00:44:30] I'm lucky to have gotten the following that I have, and I think that going forward I might be able to, Get more compensation for what I do, and that would help me make better videos, make cooler, expeditions where I'm maybe exploring a [00:44:45] cave or maybe I'm looking at a, a, riverbed full of geos instead of just looking in my backyard for, cool
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah. Yeah.
Ethan Penner: do you always find quarts? And I'm like,
Ethan Penner: do you
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah. There you go. Yep.
Chris Bolhuis: All right. That's, that's really interesting cuz there's something [00:45:00] Jesse and I know very little about. Ethan, I want to switch gears a little bit because getting ready for this interview. I watched you on YouTube, I think it was, on ASCA geologist, mineral identification through Rutgers Geology Museum or [00:45:15] your Rutgers Museum of Geology, something like that.
Chris Bolhuis: it was like an hour long thing, and I found it to be very interesting. You did a really good job. But one of the things that you, said or mentioned is that you're talking about how difficult it is to identify minerals. And Jesse, you just [00:45:30] alluded to that, and what students should use. And you talked about these apps and so that really, you you know, geoscience teacher, Jesse, you and I in a traditional like classroom. What do you think about that should those kinds of things be. [00:45:45] Encouraged, should they be used by students in that kind of like formal setting or not? What do you think about that?
Ethan Penner: It's a tough question because you want it to be right, and if there's any sort of inaccuracy to that. You don't [00:46:00] want to use it? Not necessarily because we're perfect or we're obviously, as you mentioned, you know, you won't know unless you take a specimen into the lab and get a hundred percent, a certainty. I think if you go on the field and use a, a mineral ID app on a, a piece of quartz and it tells you, well, it could [00:46:15] be quartz, it could be, Cal, I always pronounce it wrong. Um,
Chris Bolhuis: So does Jesse
Ethan Penner: could be, could be Jasper, it could be, selenite. If it gives you all these options, that's cool. a very cool application. But I think as a [00:46:30] geologist, you need to know whether something is or isn't to some degree of certainty. like I said, I was fairly confident that I was a garnet, but I don't know for sure what type of garnet, but in the field, I'm not gonna let it tell me that it's [00:46:45] could be Jasper, it could be, aite, whatever mineral I'm, I'm looking at. So I think I wouldn't wanna rely on it for its uncertainty and its pricing especially, I don't want to have to pay for something that you could just literally send me a photo of a mineral and, and ask me what I think of it. And [00:47:00] I'll tell you, at the same time, I think you should not necessarily rely on a college education of like, I think classes that deal with mineral identification, they rely a lot on. Formula [00:47:15] memorization and, all sorts of, uh, diagram work maybe in how minerals form. But I think the practical aspect of it, having a mineral in your hand, they need to focus on that more because you're not gonna have the diagrams with you all the time. You're not gonna understand, well, what is the, what is the silk content of the [00:47:30] sedimentary rock? No. You need to understand how you can differentiate a quartz from a Cal site that's basic mineral and a quartz versus a Cal site, that mineral idea might not get that right. But you can very simply determine the [00:47:45] difference through the simple tests that you learn. So I have the app. I haven't paid for the, the, the rock ID app is what I use, or
Chris Bolhuis: Okay.
Ethan Penner: but there are other ones too.
Chris Bolhuis: Well it's really refreshing for me to hear you say that cuz you know I'm old. You've already [00:48:00] established that Ethan, and you're very young, so and you're very young and that's an important discussion for me because, to me it's important to have the minerals in their hand. It's important to have these, these students do the [00:48:15] physical tests and the observational tests, cleavage and fracture and hardness and, crystal form and streak and all these things that you talked about in your, your thing with the, with the Rutgers, ASCA geologist. You know, those are important to me, but,[00:48:30] I don't want to grow out of touch. I wanna keep up and, that's how I feel. And it's just refreshing that you, said the same thing, so,
Ethan Penner: And bringing these, these tests to social media, I think is the most important step. I think when you start relying on an app to identify your, [00:48:45] your minerals and notice how I don't say rocks because these apps will not identify rocks for you. they won't understand the different minerals that go into that specific rock they will only work if you. Mostly well-formed or polished mineral. You can't bring it out into the field, where you see [00:49:00] like a rough pirate piece and be like, what is this? It'll tell you absolutely nothing useful. And so that's what I, I think is so important, Chris, is taking those tests to social media and saying, all right, I think I [00:49:15] found some py, but what are some tests we can do? Well, let's look at its luster. Let's look at its, see how dense the rock is and see if it's scratches compared to maybe, maybe it's Cal Cappy instead. Well, if it's Cal Cappy, it'll scratch a little bit easier than if it's py. And so that's what's important. Not [00:49:30] losing touch with those, core teachings, but adapting to the world that we live in.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I was trained in, in Christmas too, in the, uh, in the days when we used to use a Brunton Compass to make a, a strike and dip measurement. Like if you're taking a a plane, you know, you got this, the rock is dipping, you wanna [00:49:45] know what angles it dipping at, in which direction we'd use the Brunton Compass. And then in, when I was in grad school, the iPhone came out with the really slick app where, basically does this for you. You just set your phone on the surface and it measures that for you with, good deal, better precision than a student with a [00:50:00] Brenton can do. Uh, and so, you know, we kind of go through these technological transitions, uh, and, Sometimes, you know, you still have to make the old school measurement cuz what if your phone's on a battery or, you know, what if it's not, geolocating in the way you want it to or whatever. So having the [00:50:15] basic skillsets are still important, even if functionally it's much quicker to use the app. But exactly like you said, you gotta know where your uncertainty is. Like you gotta know what you know, and you gotta know what you don't know as well, because that's a really important point [00:50:30] to, to make sure you know, how sure you are and how much, how trusting you are of the app or of the, the new technology. So,
Ethan Penner: What's that saying? Uh, it's, it's, you know what, you know, you know what you don't know, but you don't, or something. I don't know.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: yeah, yeah. The, the [00:50:45] known that you have the known knowns and the unknown unknowns and the known unknowns and the worst ones are the unknown unknowns, the things you don't know that you don't know. I love that. That's that exactly. Totally scary. Yeah, totally scary. so, [00:51:00] you know, you're a great geoscience communicator in a very different platform than what Chris and I know, but geoscience communication nonetheless. What do you think is one thing that everybody should know about the geosciences?
Ethan Penner: Like you said before, um, [00:51:15] this is a big planet and it's the only planet that we have for the time being. you can't rely on it saying, you know, well, we can go to this other one in the solar system or in a different solar system. But you might say, well, that's the environmental scientist job. It's like, [00:51:30] it's all geoscience. It's not, you know, geologists don't just sit by and, and, and drill for oil. That's not what we do. We, we help the environment to the best extent that we can. There's different sub-disciplines of geology, economic geology, mining, geology,[00:51:45] you know, oil and gas, on gastro petroleum, geology, hydrology, environmental geology, engineering. There's so many different areas that don't just. with the energy industry, but with consulting and, and remediation of projects, [00:52:00] uh, of building infrastructure, you don't wanna do it in a way that's going to harm the environment. If anything is being done subsurface, a geologist is consulted. So it's not just looking at rocks all day. That's, that's my point is, [00:52:15] is that you go to school for geology, but you come out knowing a specific thing that you want to do in your life that's going to better the planet, whether it be helping, uh, petroleum companies [00:52:30] to safely mine that oil or gas, whether it's helping to remediate a, a big infrastructure site of, contaminants in the soil, whether it's, it's just looking for these minerals in a safe way. [00:52:45] That's a geologist's responsibility. because you don't wanna leave it up to someone who doesn't know what they're doing. It's gonna be done regardless of whether or not a geologist helps. A geologist job is to make sure it's done in the safest way possible. [00:53:00] And once, we wean off of, these non-renewable resources, geologists also focus in the environment, on helping the environment. So And I think that's what I'd wanna tell people is that, everyone who's a geologist wants to help the environment to some extent. They don't wanna see it burned [00:53:15] down. They want to see it made better.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Well, you're, you're well on your way to, uh, to that
Chris Bolhuis: Yep. That's right.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: a agree completely that,
Chris Bolhuis: Okay. Ethan, we have a final question for you that we always ask this of our guests. Uh, so what has [00:53:30] been your best day a geoscientist?
Ethan Penner: Tough question.
Ethan Penner: not when I, not when I entered college. I'll just be straight up with that. Obviously, as a geoscientist, that's a really good question, and I don't [00:53:45] necessarily think about it a whole lot because I, I days sometimes just mesh together as a geologist, you know, it's, if you're breaking rocks open constantly, you know, every day it, it's different. But I'll give it a tie, if that's okay. If you're, if you're okay with me [00:54:00] giving a tie.
Chris Bolhuis: good with two. Sure.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: allow it. Yep.
Ethan Penner: first one
Chris Bolhuis: out though. Ethan. I'm just gonna tell you.
Ethan Penner: Ah, that's reasonable. Um, the first one I'll take the day, not necessarily the [00:54:15] entire GSA meeting, obviously. I, I got to enjoy meeting both of you and, the day itself was just so probably the first day, last day, any of the days of GSA of connecting and seeing geologists as they are people, [00:54:30] not just seeing their research, but seeing the people behind their work and being able to converse and just have a great time with other geologists. I never got to do that before. I never really ha,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: GSA your first conference that you, you went to?
Ethan Penner: I went to [00:54:45] AGU 2018, but only
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Okay. when you're an undergrad, AGU is just totally overwhelming. I mean, it's too big
Dr. Jesse Reimink: to actually.
Ethan Penner: many times. I.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yes. it is very intimidating, but that the gsa, that that sort of, I mean, it's a big conference, like [00:55:00] whatever it was, 5,000 people or something. But the first conference is a really transformative experience. I had a master's student who was, who was at GSA for the first time, and it, it's just one of these like, eye-opening, amazing experiences. I remember the first time I went to a conference in grad [00:55:15] school, it was like, oh my goodness, this is so cool. This is, you kind of feel like you've arrived a little bit, you know, it's like a really awesome experience. So I, so I get that. I guess I get what you're saying
Ethan Penner: Yeah. And you're, and like you said, AGU was very, uh, intimidating, but even at that, [00:55:30] it was, it was nice. I wish I could've stayed for longer, but when I walked into that convention center in Colorado, I felt at home. I felt like it wasn't an intimidating experience. Like I could talk with any person for hours about [00:55:45] anything. So that was the one I, I really loved that experience to connect, to socialize, and just be there. the other one, A little on the opposite realm was my senior year when I took a sedimentology and stratigraphy. I did a [00:56:00] field trip, uh, one day where we were out from, I think like eight in the morning to about five or six in the evening, an entire day of, of geology. And it was the first time I had done that. And [00:56:15] obviously I'm not, uh, you know, not everyone is the type of person to love waking up in the morning. I am not, I don't ever do that. But for geology, I said, you know, let's make the most of the day. And it was just taking measurements, uh, logging data and great [00:56:30] people, a great instructor. My instructor, Tim Lowenstein, he's a fantastic individual, very passionate about what he, uh, what he teaches. it couldn't have been any better. It was just being out in, in, in nature among the rocks, great class and, you [00:56:45] know, I felt like I wouldn't rather have been anyone or else I wouldn't have wanted to be in my bed at that time.
Ethan Penner: Like I said, you know, I'm here. This is what I want to do for my life, for for my career. So let's just get into it. Let's just,
Ethan Penner: you know,
Chris Bolhuis: [00:57:00] Mm-hmm. .Yeah.
Ethan Penner: I can.
Chris Bolhuis: Yeah. I think every geology major can, uh, can relate to that.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah. We won't edit either
Dr. Jesse Reimink: of those out. Those are both very, very good ones.
Chris Bolhuis: So Ethan, um, we'd like to give you an opportunity before we end this to[00:57:15] tell our listeners how they can find out more about you,
Ethan Penner: as, as you mentioned earlier, uh, in the podcast, uh, I have one social media handle. It is Rockman Ethan across Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube. [00:57:30] Um, Twitter is actually just an underscore in between Rockman and Ethan, unfortunately. Otherwise, if you ever want to hear more about me and, and, and connect with me, I'm very active on social media. People often think they're like, whoa, you, you replied to our message. And I'm like, I'm a [00:57:45] person. I've replied to messages a lot of the time. yeah, and if, if you wanna rock id, uh, or if you just want to know more about geosciences, I try my best to always answer my dms, So that's the least I can do to give back.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: That's awesome. Well, Ethan, this has been a, a real [00:58:00] pleasure talking to you. Uh, this has been totally fun and just keep up the great work. It's, uh, it's really cool stuff you're doing and, and really you brought up some really good points about how the sort of traditional education space that Chris and I exist in and, and what you're doing on social media, kind of interact in, in ways we can, [00:58:15] you know, sort of rethink some of these things. It's a really, uh, great stuff you're doing. So keep up the good work and thanks for coming on. Planet Geo, we, we really appreciate your time. This has been awesome.
Chris Bolhuis: We really do. Ethan, this has been a lot of fun. Thank you.
Ethan Penner: Thank you both. I greatly appreciated coming on, and uh, I wish you both the best.[00:58:30]
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Talk to you soon.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Hey, that's a wrap. Thank you for listening. Again, you can find Ethan at Rockman Ethan on all the social medias apart from Twitter, where he's at Rockman underscore Ethan and you could follow us on the social medias at [00:58:45] Planet Geo Cast. Send us an email, planet geo cast gmail.com.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: You can go to our website, planet geo cast.com, support us subscribe, find transcripts to all of our episodes and find out more about us. Last thing, please leave us a rating in review. That super [00:59:00] helps the algorithm and we love hearing back from you. [00:59:15]
