Volcanoes Revisited Part 4 - Volcanology Director Tina Neal

[00:00:00] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Welcome to Planet Go, the podcast where we talk about our amazing planet, how it works, and why it matters to you. Oh, [00:00:15] Christopher, you're just a funny guy right now.

[00:00:19] Chris Bolhuis: Why is it that every time we start an episode, we're laughing in the. What, what is going on? Because I think everybody needs to know, like we're talking before we start [00:00:30] this, you know, and then you always start us and we're laughing at each other. So tell me

[00:00:34] Dr. Jesse Reimink: I think

[00:00:35] Chris Bolhuis: cuz you're usually laughing at me. What is it that I did right now that made you laugh?

[00:00:40] Dr. Jesse Reimink: well, apart from looking at you, I think it's just your general demeanor and [00:00:45] struggles with technology are really cracking me up here, you know? You're just, you're technologically an 85 year old man,

[00:00:57] Chris Bolhuis: that's actually not true.

[00:00:58] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah. I don't [00:01:00] know. Okay. So we're still on a break, Chris, from recording new stuff, we're actually recording new stuff in the background. We're on a break from releasing, said new content. So we've all got something to look forward to in the new year here. And this Chris is part four [00:01:15] of our Volcano re-releases, which yet again is another interview with just an exceptional geoscientist,

[00:01:23] Chris Bolhuis: That is right. I mean we, I don't know how we landed this one, but we landed Tina Neal and [00:01:30] she is the head of the. I don't know. What do you call it, Jesse? It's the Volcano Observatory for the United States. So what's that called?

[00:01:37] Dr. Jesse Reimink: I mean, her title is Science Center Director, of the uh, Volcano Science Center for the United States [00:01:45] Geological Survey, which. Obviously is quite a big title and quite a cool job, I would say. And you described this as like Vulcanology and volcanologists are basically the equivalent to, being an aquatic biologist who swims with the [00:02:00] dolphins. Like, being a volcanologist is sort of the really cool job in geology that everybody, you know, every little kid wants to do is study volcanoes kind of. Right?

[00:02:07] Chris Bolhuis: Yeah, everybody wants to see red lava, And myself included in that, I have never seen it. I've seen so much [00:02:15] hardened red lava, but I've

[00:02:17] Dr. Jesse Reimink: It's not the

[00:02:18] Chris Bolhuis: seen. It's not the same although I get really excited over like pojo flow textures and AA flow textures and, bombs. You know, stuff like that. But no, I've [00:02:30] never, no, not

[00:02:31] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Well Chris, there is a lot that gets you excited in geoscience a lot that gets you dialed up and fired up. So, uh, this person, Tina Neal is like we said, , the director of the Volcano Science Center for the US Geological Survey. [00:02:45] And. She's got tons of experience, massive amounts of experience. She's overseeing the work of 170 employees at the Five Volcano Observatories, has worked on really cool stuff all the way through her career. And in this interview she gets into some of that really cool stuff. She [00:03:00] has seen Red Lava , so,

[00:03:02] Chris Bolhuis: Oh, a lot of it.

[00:03:03] Dr. Jesse Reimink: A, a lot of it right, as served as scientists in charge of the Hawaiian Volcano Observatory and done all sorts of stuff at various volcano centers in the United States Government, geological survey. So really [00:03:15] interesting interview

[00:03:15] Chris Bolhuis: That's right. Two episodes ago we interviewed Dr. Andy Calvert and he said, you have to talk to my boss. And that's this episode

[00:03:24] Dr. Jesse Reimink: That was very true. We did need to talk to her. And Chris, I just want to say [00:03:30] here, you touched on it earlier, I'm frankly extremely honored that we get to talk to people like this. Like it's blown my mind, the level of. People who are willing to give us an hour of their time and chat about [00:03:45] their, careers and geoscience and what it means to them. It's just one of the coolest parts about doing this podcast,, with you is, is the people we get to really talk to. So cool.

[00:03:55] Chris Bolhuis: A hundred percent agree a hundred percent. Um, and the other thing is just [00:04:00] what you and I learned from each other. And I think that is a symbiotic relationship that we have. We both learn so much from each other doing this. all around, this thing is so cool. I love doing this podcast,

[00:04:12] Dr. Jesse Reimink: I do too. And so with that, before you listen to [00:04:15] Tina Neal, Leave us a review in a rating. We haven't asked for that for a while, but that really helps us. We've gotten a couple recently. Uh, we love that and it helps the algorithm, helps other people find Planet Geo and, and really helps us in the algorithm there. You can also go to our website, planet geo cast.com. Send [00:04:30] us an email, planet Geo cast@gmail.com. Follow us on all the social medias. And another thing you could do for us is click on that first link in the show notes and go check out. Camp Geo conversational textbook and leave us some feedback on that. We're excited to, to have this available now [00:04:45] and uh, we'd love to get some feedback from you.

[00:04:46] Chris Bolhuis: What's right. Cheers.

[00:04:48] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Cheers, Tina Neal, welcome to Planet Geo and thank you for joining us. We are really appreciative of your time here.

[00:04:59] Tina Neal: [00:05:00] Oh, you're welcome. Glad to be here.

[00:05:02] Dr. Jesse Reimink: This is, uh, this is really exciting. So before we get into some questions, you are the director of the United States Geological Surveys, volcano Science Center.

[00:05:11] Dr. Jesse Reimink: And you're based in Alaska, is that right? Right

[00:05:13] Tina Neal: now. That's [00:05:15] correct. I'm in Anchorage

[00:05:16] Dr. Jesse Reimink: and you've, you've sort of, you have a Wikipedia page, so that's rare among guests we get on this , but that's pretty cool. Um, and you've, you've been all over the place. You've sort of studied a lot of different volcanoes and been at these volcano observatories for much of your [00:05:30] career with the United States Geological Survey, and we're gonna get into that, but we like to kind of get the full view of a geoscience career and start at the beginning.

[00:05:37] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Right, Chris?

[00:05:38] Chris Bolhuis: Right on. So Tina, we always ask this question because there, there are certain defining [00:05:45] moments for Jesse and I in terms of like when and why we got into the geosciences. Was there something that happened to you along the way, kind of an aha moment for you that that led you

[00:05:54] Tina Neal: down this path?

[00:05:57] Tina Neal: there was, and it's going to sound familiar to you [00:06:00] both. Um, but before I share the aha, I'll just say for context, I grew up in southern Connecticut and, and kind of an outdoors context. My, my family had property on a lot of acreage. I spent a lot of time in the woods and we had [00:06:15] some out outcrops of metamorphic rocks and I used to think I was gonna get rich off the garnet.

[00:06:20] Tina Neal: So I think , I rocks, part of my rocks were part of my childhood. Um, and being a child of the sixties, I was also very influenced by the [00:06:30] Space Age and, uh, the Gemini program, the Apollo program. My sister worked at CBS News and used to bring home the press packet. So like many Volcanologists, uh, and geologists, I wanted to be an astronaut.

[00:06:44] Tina Neal: That was [00:06:45] my early childhood passion, and I anticipated doing that by going into medicine in college. And then I went to a lecture one night on the geology of Mars. and I was just gobsmacked. I had no idea [00:07:00] that people did this kind of work, that they looked at other planets through the eyes of a geologist.

[00:07:07] Tina Neal: I really, all I knew about geology was the rock cycle in CO until I got to college. The professor who gave this lecture was a man named [00:07:15] Tim much, and he unfortunately

[00:07:17] Dr. Jesse Reimink: died. Where was this? This was at Brown. This

[00:07:20] Tina Neal: was at Brown University. He, he was killed in a climbing accident before I was able to take a course from him.

[00:07:25] Tina Neal: But he was an amazingly inspirational man and [00:07:30] I went to see him the very next day and said, I wanna do this. How do I do this? And he was very gentle and sweet with my naive enthusiasm and said, well, take a geology class. . Yeah. So I did and uh, I was.

[00:07:43] Dr. Jesse Reimink: What level were you [00:07:45] at, in, in, had you, were you fairly advanced in your degree at that point or not?

[00:07:48] Dr. Jesse Reimink: You know,

[00:07:49] Tina Neal: I think I was nearing the end of my sophomore year, so I had to really hustle to, to cram everything in. Yeah. So

[00:07:55] Chris Bolhuis: what, what led you to this lecture in the first place

[00:07:57] Tina Neal: then? I don't remember. I wish I, I [00:08:00] wish I did. Probably just the space connection. I, you know, Mars. Okay. Mars probably caught my eye.

[00:08:05] Tina Neal: Yeah. So that was my aha moment for sure. And then of course, Mount St. Helen's erupted in 1980 when I was also still in college. And that was a seminal event for many [00:08:15] of us. Captured our imagination and reminded us that we live on an active planet, the first big eruption in the United States, and certainly my lifetime for many, many generations.

[00:08:24] Tina Neal: So, um, yeah, it was, it was a great confluence of timing. And this, uh, [00:08:30] man named Tim much who I. spread it. My discovery too.

[00:08:34] Dr. Jesse Reimink: That is very cool. And how did you get into the United States Geological Survey then? I mean, you've been working there for, for the majority of your career, if I'm not mistaken. Um, right at various [00:08:45] volcano observatories.

[00:08:45] Dr. Jesse Reimink: So what led you to sort of a, a service? You know, I, I, it's a service, right? You know, the geological survey. So what led you

[00:08:53] Tina Neal: there? After my junior year, I had a, an opportunity to go to the Astro Geology Center in the U [00:09:00] S G S in Flagstaff, Arizona. And, uh, this was, again, because of the wonderful support I had from Brown University professors in that case, a man in Jim Head.

[00:09:10] Tina Neal: And so, as an intern in Flagstaff, I worked on a, a geologic map of [00:09:15] Olympus Mons on Mars. Uh, this was using Viking Orbiter images, which, which now looks so primitive, fuzzy, and high altitude and make out the crater. And that's about it. Change a little bit. [00:09:30] So that was my introduction to the U S G S in Flagstaff and U S G S research and Astro Geology and this concept of being a US Geological survey scientist.

[00:09:40] Tina Neal: And I, through those connections, I later was able to [00:09:45] have a, an opportunity to, to start working in Hawaii at the Hawaiian Volcano Observatory.

[00:09:49] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Really? And that was your first stint there. Um, and you came back more recently to, uh, be the scientist in charge, I believe was the, was the title at the Hawaiian, [00:10:00] uh, volcano Observatory.

[00:10:01] Dr. Jesse Reimink: And actually this was a, an interesting time there because you and the observatory team were finalists for this Samuel Haman Service to America medal, which is a, a very fancy award in, uh, in the US government. But this was [00:10:15] monitoring kill away during this eruption. So can you kind of paint us a picture of what was going on?

[00:10:18] Dr. Jesse Reimink: This was relatively recently, was it 2017 or was it 2018? 2018, I

[00:10:22] Tina Neal: think 20. Right. The eruption was in 2018 and, uh, the award service was in the fall of 19. So first of all, [00:10:30] yes, it was an incredible honor and, and total credit and hats off to the staff at H V O and all of the scientists from other places that came to work with us during that eruption.

[00:10:40] Tina Neal: I think the award

[00:10:40] Dr. Jesse Reimink: was, so, can I, can I interrupt there? H V O is the Hawaii Volcano Observatory, but other [00:10:45] people flew in during this eruption. Is that, is that kind of how it works? Oh,

[00:10:48] Tina Neal: absolutely. So very early on in the event, it was clear that we, our staff of, of 30 or so people could not handle the workload.

[00:10:56] Tina Neal: And so scientists from the other volcano observatories came [00:11:00] in, in shifts or, uh, to help out and continue to do so for, for months. So it was really a, an effort of the whole Volcano Science Center. But, um, yeah, H V O was, was called out for this award. Um, and really the [00:11:15] staff scientists there, they just put their heart and soul into the eruption response and, uh, absolutely deserved it.

[00:11:21] Tina Neal: So, Uh, you know, what were we doing at the time to, to monitor Killa It. As you know, all the volcano observatories has [00:11:30] a part of their mission to track activity at the active volcanoes in their jurisdiction and to track activity 24 7 and to look for changes that might mean that there's a, a change in hazard status.

[00:11:42] Tina Neal: And so we were doing that at Kilo and [00:11:45] using all the tools that all observatories use, 24 7 seismometers, uh, gps and other geo geo instruments like tilt meters, um, various cameras doing a lot of direct observation and the like.

[00:11:58] Dr. Jesse Reimink: And a lot of our listeners are very [00:12:00] general, like people who don't have a geoscience background.

[00:12:01] Dr. Jesse Reimink: So could you go into a little bit more detail about the tools of the trade? And, and actually I'm interested in the structure of the, the Volcano Science Center. How, like, so there's a bunch of observatories, how do they interact and what tools are you using? Like what is [00:12:15] the mandate for this type of, uh, institute?

[00:12:18] Tina Neal: So the, the mission of the Volcano Science Center within the US Geological Survey is to track activity at the potentially active volcanoes in the United States. And there are 161 of them by our [00:12:30] current count. Oh,

[00:12:31] Dr. Jesse Reimink: wow. That's a lot, Chris. A lot.

[00:12:33] Chris Bolhuis: You know, that, that, that many, I, I had no idea that was No. Well, these are 61.

[00:12:37] Chris Bolhuis: Wow.

[00:12:38] Tina Neal: Yeah. That's the co, that's the comprehensive list of what we consider to be potentially active volcanoes. Now this includes some of the small [00:12:45] basaltic fields in New Mexico and Arizona and Utah. Mm-hmm. , um, things that haven't erupted for a long time, but could again. And so the observatories, we've broken up the area.

[00:12:56] Tina Neal: The United States geographically and observatories have a certain area of [00:13:00] jurisdiction and, and they're responsible for tracking activity at those volcanoes, using a variety of techniques, seismometers that track earthquakes at the volcanoes and underneath the volcanoes. Um, gps and tilt meters are instruments that look at the [00:13:15] ground deformation, how the ground is moving up, down east, west, north, south, um, at volcanoes in response to changes in magnetic pressure, gas sensing instruments, uh, various kinds of cameras that are looking [00:13:30] just at the visual field, but also at thermal imagery.

[00:13:34] Tina Neal: And then of course, satellites are increasingly becoming a tool to monitor volcanoes from space looking again at ground deformation, at thermal emissions, gas emissions, and, and the light. So [00:13:45] each observatory has a, has this same suite of tools. And then depending on how accessible the volcanoes are, you might also have geologists or geophysicists who go out to the volcano every day, every week and make direct observations with their own [00:14:00] eyeballs.

[00:14:00] Tina Neal: Um, because nothing replaces the human eye when it comes to looking at the volcano and seeing what it's doing and understanding it. So of course at Kilo Volcano where our observatory was sitting right on the top of a volcano until [00:14:15] 2018, there was an act of lava lake there in 2018. And our geologists would go down there just about every day, take measurements of the level of the lake observations of the lake surface character, what it was doing, samples of the tephra that would be [00:14:30] erupted from the lake and the lake.

[00:14:32] Tina Neal: Were you standing

[00:14:32] Chris Bolhuis: on the rim of the Caldera?

[00:14:34] Tina Neal: That's right. The observatory was up at the, on the rim of the Caldera. Um, and so there are five, five volcano observatories within the Volcano Science Center. There's Alaska, the [00:14:45] Cascades, California, Yellowstone, and Hawaii. So

[00:14:48] Chris Bolhuis: when you're standing on the rim of the Caldera looking down on the lava Lake Tina, could you smell the gases

[00:14:54] Tina Neal: depending on the wind direction?

[00:14:56] Tina Neal: Absolutely. .

[00:14:58] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Um, wow. That's cool. [00:15:00] That is, that's good. Very cool. So, so what was going on? Why, why was 2018 such a big, you know, momentous event and why, like, why were people flying in to, to help?

[00:15:08] Tina Neal: So in 2018, uh, it wasn't a mo it was completely a momentous event. Uh, for many of us, it might be [00:15:15] a life, a once in a lifetime eruption experience.

[00:15:18] Tina Neal: The volcano had been essentially steadily erupting with very little change. Uh, since 1983, there had been a event active on its east drift zone zone, then the [00:15:30] national park, and it had been erupting almost continuously since that time. In 2008, a vent opened up at the summit of the volcano inside the Caldera, within the Holly Ma pit crater.

[00:15:42] Tina Neal: And this had been erupting steadily since [00:15:45] 2008 in the lava lake had been rising. But in April of 2018, we saw a very significant change. The Puo vent or eruption site essentially collapsed. The lava column drained out [00:16:00] of view. Earthquakes began occurring to the east down the east RIF zone from Puo. Uh, we could see the ground deforming, and this was because Magna was intruding down the roof zone towards [00:16:15] the populated part of southeastern Hawaii island.

[00:16:19] Tina Neal: And so, uh, eventually what happened is lava broke out inside of residential subdivision, and for the next three months we had an eruption where lava flows were, uh, destroying homes and, uh, reached the ocean. [00:16:30] And, uh, it was a consequential eruption for the people of the Hawaii island. Yeah. Community and scientifically it was a very interesting eruption, but, uh, this was the largest eruption in the United States really since 1980 in terms of impact.

[00:16:44] Tina Neal: Wow. [00:16:45] The response to that eruption, the science that was conducted, the efforts that the Hawaiian Volcano Observatory staff went through to keep people informed and help keep people safe, that was really the basis for the, the, the Sammy.

[00:16:59] Chris Bolhuis: So, [00:17:00] yeah. Tina, I saw you telling a short story to a group of people and it was, it was called, it's Time to Go.

[00:17:06] Chris Bolhuis: Um, , can you tell us about

[00:17:08] Dr. Jesse Reimink: that real quick? We shouldn't laugh at that, but that's a great name. .

[00:17:12] Tina Neal: Yeah. So the, the, the [00:17:15] community of Volcano, which is a small rural town at the top of the volcano, just outside the National Park, they have a really wonderful art center there. And they had people who went through the eruption experience, uh, tell these seven minute [00:17:30] stories about yeah, things that were important to them.

[00:17:32] Tina Neal: And I chose to tell the story of what it was like really in the days following the start of the eruption inside the volcano observatory up at the summit, uh, when it became clear that we had to [00:17:45] abandon our building and, and leave. Uh, and so this story was about the, the sense of, uh, increasing severity and frequency of earthquakes.

[00:17:55] Tina Neal: Um, recognizing that cracks were. Forming in the building [00:18:00] and Oh wow. Support, the support beams that held up the ground floor of the observatory were starting to, to, to be agitated and potentially come loose from their support columns. It just was not a safe place to be, I think.

[00:18:14] Chris Bolhuis: Wasn't it [00:18:15] a, a 6.9 event that told you it's, we we need to leave?

[00:18:20] Tina Neal: Well, believe it or not, it wasn't the 6.9, uh, the six . Okay. The 6.9 earthquake followed a couple of five point something, uh, [00:18:30] four shocks and, and that, that was a structural response of the volcano. To the intrusion into the East Drift zone. Uh, it was a big event. I, I happened to be in a helicopter at the time, so I didn't feel it, but I, I heard all the stories over the subsequent [00:18:45] couple of weeks after that May 4th big earthquake.

[00:18:48] Tina Neal: Uh, we were starting to just have earthquakes every day, multiple earthquakes a day, large enough to really shake the building. As the summit of the volcano was beginning to subside and collapse. [00:19:00] And so it was accumulative damage from a couple of weeks and the, and the prospect that this was not going to end anytime soon.

[00:19:07] Tina Neal: That really convinced us to leave along with ash explosions that were occurring from the summit

[00:19:13] Dr. Jesse Reimink: event. Wow. [00:19:15] That's pretty dramatic. So, so this is, the summit is kind of collapsing because the magmas draining out the volcanic eruption that's occurring down, down the, the mountain side. Is that, is that what was going on?

[00:19:26] Tina Neal: Exactly. It's as simple as that. Uh. The [00:19:30] vents in, in the lower east drip zone at lower elevation were draining the summit magma system and the roof of the volcano was falling in, partially collapsing. You

[00:19:41] Dr. Jesse Reimink: were sitting on top of that . We had a, we had cracks in the building and [00:19:45] lots of earthquakes. Yeah.

[00:19:46] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Makes sense. Jesse. I saw,

[00:19:47] Chris Bolhuis: uh, there was that a webcam of the, the national park sign during the 6.9 event and it was rocking and rolling. Oh really? It was, it was shaken pretty violently. Yeah, it was really cool. [00:20:00] Yeah. So Tina, um, you have been the scientist in charge at the H V O, the Hawaiian Volcano Observatory.

[00:20:06] Chris Bolhuis: The Alaskan Volcano Observatory. What exactly does a scientist in charge besides having a really cool title? What do you do? [00:20:15]

[00:20:15] Tina Neal: Uh, yeah, sure. So I was the scientist in charge of the Hawaiian Volcano Observatory. Not, not the Alaska Volcano Observatory. At a at avo. I was a staff scientist. Um, . But what a scientist in charge does, uh, really is, is lead the observatory [00:20:30] in, in a number of different aspects of its operation.

[00:20:33] Tina Neal: I like to say you're, it's like you're the coach of a really high functioning team. You've got a staff of scientists and technicians and administrative support professionals, and you're all united in [00:20:45] trying to better understand your volcanoes hazardous processes, deliver information to help keep people safe, and really conduct a lot of fundamental scientific research to inform doing a better job at, at that hazard assessment and warning [00:21:00] process.

[00:21:01] Tina Neal: So, uh, you're the, you're the science leader. You're the leader of budget planning, workforce planning. You're trying to set priorities for the Volcano Observatory, you are advocating on behalf of your staff and your [00:21:15] science program within the bureaucracy of U S G S. Of course, there's lots of competing demands on money.

[00:21:21] Tina Neal: Yeah, yeah. Um, you're also doing a lot of interaction with other government agencies, and that's really important because as you [00:21:30] know, in order for communities to be safe around potentially active volcanoes, uh, people have to be informed. They have to be prepared, and emergency response agencies have to have plans for what they're gonna do.

[00:21:41] Tina Neal: When lava threatens to break out in a subdivision [00:21:45] or, um, an explosive volcano threatens to erupt, that's upwind of your community. So we have a lot of relationships with partners at other agencies, at the state, at the local, state and federal levels. I, I also think that the scientist in [00:22:00] charge has a main job, and that is, uh, looking over the horizon.

[00:22:03] Tina Neal: What's coming next? What do I need to be prepared for? Are we prepared? for the next eruption or the next, uh, event that we're not quite thinking about, that kind of thing. Do you do

[00:22:14] Chris Bolhuis: less [00:22:15] science because you have all these other hats that you have to wear? For

[00:22:18] Tina Neal: most scientists in charge, you are not engaged much in active research.

[00:22:23] Tina Neal: That's not true of all of them. Some, some have the capacity and the time to, to still be doing [00:22:30] scientific research, and we encourage that because it helps maintain your, uh, your sharpness, your credibility, your engagement with your staff. Um, but some, some jobs are just really too consuming to be very active in that regard.

[00:22:42] Tina Neal: Yeah. but varies.

[00:22:43] Chris Bolhuis: I would imagine being, [00:22:45] uh, the scientist in charge at H V O during the 2018, was one of those situations?

[00:22:50] Tina Neal: For me it was. Um, but it's a little bit of a, a little bit of a personal decision. I think depend depending on, on who, who the person is for sure. I think the most [00:23:00] important characteristics of a scientist in charge, in addition to having some long experience dealing with volcanic crises, Doing volcano science and having a, a kind of a breadth of, uh, understanding of, of the various disciplines in volcano [00:23:15] is really the ability to lead a team of, of diverse, very high functioning individuals and helping facilitate their work.

[00:23:22] Dr. Jesse Reimink: One side question to that, and you kind of touched on it, but it's easy for me to imagine what a Volcano Observatory is doing in a time of crisis. [00:23:30] Everybody's running around, you know, trying to help. Right. What about when there's no eruptions going on? Like, is it a lot of sort of predicting where things might happen next or troubleshooting of the systems you have in place?

[00:23:41] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Like, like what's going on in the background, sort of normal time when it's not a [00:23:45] crisis?

[00:23:45] Tina Neal: Yeah, good question. Um, we're not like a, a fire, well, even, even at a firehouse in between fire responses, firemen and women are busy.

[00:23:55] Dr. Jesse Reimink: I like this analogy. I like where this analogy's going. Okay, . No, they're,

[00:23:58] Tina Neal: they're, they're fixing their [00:24:00] equipment.

[00:24:00] Tina Neal: They're, they're buying new equipment and making sure it works. Um, they're looking back at the last response and saying, how, how can we do a better job next time? But in a, in an observatory setting, you've got scientists who have just been [00:24:15] delivered a fire hose of, of data and information and they're trying to make sense of it.

[00:24:19] Tina Neal: And so, uh, in the aftermath of the 2018 eruption, for instance, there have been a numb, just dozens of scientific papers that have come out and more will come out as [00:24:30] both U S G S scientists and lots of academic and other collaborators work up the data and, and extract insights from the science. So there's always something going on.

[00:24:40] Tina Neal: The other thing I'll say is that even if a volcano is not erupting, we still have to monitor it [00:24:45] 24 7 if it's potentially active. . And so there's keeping up with all of those data and uh, you have to watch it carefully. You have to address any perturbations and make sure that either you understand why they're happening or that they're not of great consequence.[00:25:00]

[00:25:00] Tina Neal: So it's always a busy time at a Volcano observatory. .

[00:25:04] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Okay. Well, I guess that's good. So you've worked at Volcano observatories in both Hawaii and Alaska, and these are very different tectonic settings, very different sort of plumbing systems, very different volcanoes. Can you, [00:25:15] like, what's your view on that?

[00:25:16] Dr. Jesse Reimink: What, like, I, I don't know, just can you sort of riff on, on the differences there and what's interesting about each, each individual place?

[00:25:23] Chris Bolhuis: Sure. And Tina also feel free to dive into like the under workings of the geology of these two [00:25:30] different systems too.

[00:25:31] Tina Neal: Okay, well, yes, um, Hawaii and Alaska are very different and people are sometimes amused.

[00:25:37] Tina Neal: went back and forth between the two because they are so different. . They do, they do require different wardrobes. Completely , [00:25:45] that's great. But in, in all seriousness, of course, Hawaii is a hotspot ocean island system and you've got the salted volcanoes, erupting magma from, from deep within the earth with, with very little, uh, residence [00:26:00] time and the earth's crust.

[00:26:00] Tina Neal: So not much chemical change on its way to the surface. So you

[00:26:04] Chris Bolhuis: mean, just to clarify, you mean not a lot of residents time that the magma comes from the source to the surface fairly quickly, it traverses the crust fast,

[00:26:14] Tina Neal: [00:26:15] is that correct? That's correct. And, and so what we're seeing is fairly primitive magma from the Earth's interior in Hawaii at, at these Ocean Island systems.

[00:26:24] Tina Neal: And so as a result, you develop these large, uh, basaltic shield volcanoes that are fairly gentle [00:26:30] sloped. Um, they can grow to massive size as we see on, on Hawaii Island. And their eruptions tend to be non explosive and produce lava flows, which people have seen pictures of these rivers of molten rock, [00:26:45] uh, that can move very quickly, but without the production of a lot of ash or, or tefra.

[00:26:50] Tina Neal: Hawaiian eruptions, of course, are wonderful in the sense that because they don't explode very often, uh, you can approach them very closely. And so as a scientist, you can [00:27:00] gain access and get, it's very accessible. You can move closely to do experiments, to make observations, to collect samples. And, uh, that's one reason that oaa Volcano in Hawaii has been a destination for scientists all over the world because you can [00:27:15] work up close and personal with that volcano.

[00:27:18] Tina Neal: It's frequently active and it's very accessible. In contrast in, in Alaska, uh, as in the Cascades or Japan or other environments where you have a geologic process called [00:27:30] subduction going on where. Two tectonic plates are meeting, uh, one is being pushed slash dragged below the other magma that is generated in that process.

[00:27:41] Tina Neal: Uh, by the time it erupts the surface is higher in [00:27:45] silica and therefore tends to be more explosive in its nature and produce ash clouds and pyroclastic debris. Uh, these volcanoes and their eruptions are quite a bit more dangerous to approach closely. And so we, that we don't, uh, it's very [00:28:00] rare that we would get up close and personal with an Alaskan volcano eruption.

[00:28:03] Tina Neal: So in that case, the Alaska Volcano Observatory, we do a lot, quite a bit more of our work remotely during eruptions, meaning, okay, we might fly out in an aircraft, but observe from a safe [00:28:15] distance or, um, look down with satellite sensors to track the eruption or use distant geophysical instruments like seismometers and Infras sound and, and G G P S to track the, the activity.[00:28:30]

[00:28:30] Tina Neal: So there's this very big dichotomy of access during and, and proximity during an eruption. Uh, that's a really important difference. If I could just add one, really other important difference between the two. Um, in Alaska, [00:28:45] thankfully, we don't have many people living really close to or right on these active, potentially active volcanoes.

[00:28:52] Tina Neal: So there, there are a few communities that are close enough to be of, of concern, and of course, being downwind of an ash producing eruption, [00:29:00] uh, that impact can travel quite a distance. But in Hawaii, you've got thousands of people living right on potentially active, active volcanoes. And that's a huge difference.

[00:29:09] Tina Neal: It imparts a difference in terms of the, the tenor of your work in terms of the seriousness and, [00:29:15] and, uh, impact of an eruption in, you know, immediately upon people.

[00:29:19] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Okay. Yeah. Interesting.

[00:29:21] Chris Bolhuis: Which, which system

[00:29:22] Tina Neal: do you prefer? Which system do I prefer? . Oh, that's a really hard choice. They both have, both have their attractions.

[00:29:29] Tina Neal: And I [00:29:30] would be remiss also, and I'll be criticized if I don't clarify this, you know, in Alaska, one of the reasons that we have such an effort to monitor the 52 or so historically active volcanoes, even though people aren't living on them, is that [00:29:45] explosive eruptions from Alaskan volcanoes can endanger aircraft.

[00:29:48] Tina Neal: And we have thousands of people flying overhead in jet aircraft between North America and Asia every day. So, um, colleague once referred to those as, as towns in the sky, [00:30:00] uh, which is a good, good way to put it in that that's our immediate hazard of concern in Alaska.

[00:30:06] Dr. Jesse Reimink: That's a, I like that. Towns in the sky.

[00:30:08] Dr. Jesse Reimink: That's a pretty cool one. That's a, that's a good phrase. So there's 50 active volcanoes in the, under the purview of the Alaska [00:30:15] Volcano Observatory. That's a lot. Wow. I had no idea. So

[00:30:18] Chris Bolhuis: Tina, have you ever been in a dangerous situation while working on a volcano? Has anything like ever made you

[00:30:24] Dr. Jesse Reimink: anxious or, so I need to preface this, Tina, because I took a lot of classes from Chris and he [00:30:30] would always just go on and on and on about how he wants to die in a volcano if he can.

[00:30:34] Dr. Jesse Reimink: He wants to die in a volcano. So he's just obsessed with, you know, being there and getting hit with the ash cloud in his face. Like if he's gonna go out, he wants to go out in a volcano. So that's where [00:30:45] this, this question's coming from. I think , right? Chris? Am I wrong?

[00:30:49] Chris Bolhuis: No, I, she can answer this

[00:30:51] Dr. Jesse Reimink: however she wants.

[00:30:53] Tina Neal: Okay. Yeah, I, I'm often asked this question and I, I would say that in Alaska, in the [00:31:00] years that I was doing field work out on volcanoes, I was never afraid of the volcano, in part because I was never really close to or on the volcano when it was erupting, uh, for the reasons we discussed in Alaska, [00:31:15] as with all field work.

[00:31:17] Tina Neal: In Alaska. Things that made me nervous from time to time were the weather conditions of flying either in small aircraft or he helicopters were sometimes marginal at best. And, uh, [00:31:30] the big, the big bears that are in parts of life, . So those were things that bothered me most in Alaska. Now in Hawaii, I did have one, one experience that I'll never forget, and that was being lost in the fog, the [00:31:45] whiteout condition, right near the Puo event on Kilos East thrift zone.

[00:31:50] Tina Neal: It was getting ready to go into one of its high fountain phases and, and my colleague and, and boss, ed Wolf and I were out there mapping the lava flow from the last phase and it [00:32:00] started to rain and it all the recently hot and placed lava was very hot. And so it just became a steam bath and I was right next to the cone and I knew there was lava up in the cone and it was getting high and about to spill over into the [00:32:15] channel.

[00:32:15] Tina Neal: and I, this was before G p s and I didn't know really exactly where I was and I had to get around the clone. So, uh, that was a, that was a nerve-wracking day, but it obviously ended well. You know, I nobody [00:32:30] wants to take unnecessary chances in our group, and I, I feel like safety is a, a value we all have. Um, surely we pushed the envelopes at times, but always for a good reason and mm-hmm.

[00:32:43] Tina Neal: and I think, uh, by and large people are [00:32:45] very safe. We don't want, we don't want anyone to get hurt or die.

[00:32:48] Chris Bolhuis: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Did you have any close encounters with the, uh, with the bears in

[00:32:52] Tina Neal: Alaska? Uh, on a couple of occasions, yes. Many of us carry firearms to protect ourselves against [00:33:00] bears in Alaska. I never had to shoot an animal, thank goodness, but I did discharge my weapon a couple of times to try and scare them away.

[00:33:09] Tina Neal: I don't think that really works.

[00:33:14] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Okay. And, uh, [00:33:15] field work. I, I do. In the Northwest Territories, you get, uh, the same opinion about how likely you are to scare grizzly away with your shotgun little shotgun, uh, blasting in the air. So,

[00:33:27] Chris Bolhuis: Tina, you dropped a name. Uh, ed [00:33:30] Wolf, that name sounds very familiar to me. Was he one of Theologists that played a role in Pinatubo?

[00:33:37] Chris Bolhuis: Absolutely. Okay. All right. I, I knew, I thought I recognized the name. So good, good

[00:33:43] Tina Neal: memory. Yeah, ed, [00:33:45] ed was my first supervisor at the Hawaiian Volcano Observatory. He, he took a chance on me and,

[00:33:51] Chris Bolhuis: um, Tina, so, To me being a volcanologist, and I think to a lot of people, it's like a dream job. Um, . So is [00:34:00] there a, is there a downside to this?

[00:34:02] Tina Neal: Yeah. For, for an earth

[00:34:04] Dr. Jesse Reimink: time. Don't worry, Tina. No, no one, no one's gonna hear your answer here. So you can feel free to be, you know, very honest with us. It's just me and Chris here. Don't worry. .

[00:34:13] Tina Neal: Thanks for that. [00:34:15] Um, I, I was, I, I've thought about this. Is there a downside to being a volcanologist? It is a marvelous profession, and, and I, after 38 years, I feel so fortunate to have had this, this journey.

[00:34:26] Tina Neal: It's given me so much. I think the things that occur [00:34:30] to me that could be considered downside are, well, one, there are not many jobs as a ologist. And so when I'm trying to encourage early career scientists or students to go into earth science and maybe become a ologist, I always [00:34:45] feel a little disingenuous because, So there aren't that many jobs, and I don't want people to, to get their hopes up.

[00:34:51] Tina Neal: It'd be nice if we could hire more volcanologists. Um, but another thing is that in, in the heat of the moment, in a crisis, [00:35:00] if it can be extremely pressure packed and there can be a, a lot of, um, anxiety and well pressure and stress really, if, if people's lives are on the line. If, if [00:35:15] big property infrastructure is at risk and, and you're in the hot seat to give a correct interpretation to emergency authorities and those at risk, for some people that's a, probably a, a real adrenaline [00:35:30] rush and a, and a wonderful thing, but not for everybody.

[00:35:32] Tina Neal: Some of my most challenging moments in my career have been trying to explain what might happen and also being honest about what we don't know. . And I [00:35:45] think being able to do that and talk about that uncertainty was extremely hard. And I, I lost a lot of sleep over how to do that Well, and hopefully I bet.

[00:35:54] Tina Neal: Yeah. You know, and the third thing that occurred to me about a downside, if there is one, is that [00:36:00] if you're working, especially internationally, unfortunately in many countries, a lot of the people who are at highest risk for volcanic hazard are, are the marginalized communities who have, uh, less resources at [00:36:15] hand.

[00:36:15] Tina Neal: And, and I suspect that that's hard to see when you're there either doing scientific research or responding to a crisis. And, and there are just so many societal challenges for people in those situations in [00:36:30] addition to a volcanic hazard. And I think at times that that can feel a little oppressive.

[00:36:36] Chris Bolhuis: Yeah.

[00:36:36] Chris Bolhuis: That's

[00:36:37] Dr. Jesse Reimink: certainly understandable. Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. So on the note of, you know, communicating these, the uncertainty or the potential [00:36:45] outcomes, like what is, what is the general public, what should people know about volcano monitoring and volcano hazards and sort of the future of this stuff? I mean, I think, uh, we, we see reports every once in a while of like, oh, you know, [00:37:00] people, your phones, everybody's carrying this accelerometer around so we can utilize this to collect new data.

[00:37:05] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Like, what, what do people need to know about this? Or what should they be aware of if, especially if they live on or around these things?

[00:37:12] Tina Neal: Yeah. Thanks for that question. Well, I think, of course, uh, we'll [00:37:15] be a little United States eccentric here, but this, this could apply to many countries and, and that is if you live near or downwind of a volcano, certainly if you live in a valley round of volcano, it's important that you get to know your volcano, find out what, what's what is [00:37:30] known about the volcano from your local scientific agency or state authority and, and.

[00:37:36] Tina Neal: And be assertive about what preparations are in place, um, for what your community should do if the volcano should wake up in [00:37:45] the United States with the US Geological survey that you would, would inquire of, and the local observatory. We all have websites where we put data and pictures and information and hazard assessment reports and various graphics.

[00:37:59] Tina Neal: So there's a lot out [00:38:00] there that you can learn about, and I, people shouldn't be encouraged to do that. Um, there also, there's also a lot of good information about how to be ready for a volcanic eruption. And one of the things, um, that I'd like to emphasize is that, you know, we all have a lot to worry about.[00:38:15]

[00:38:15] Tina Neal: We've got covid. We've got . Yeah. Inflation, we've got, I mean, the list can go on and on and on. I, I'm familiar with this concept of the finite pool of worry, and you don't want to add volcanic eruptions to everybody's worry list, but. [00:38:30] The same things that you would do to get ready for a volcanic eruption will serve you well.

[00:38:34] Tina Neal: Getting ready for a winter storm or an earthquake or a landslide in many cases, and a lot of commonality to just general emergency preparedness. So it's a good message to [00:38:45] reinforce. Um, but I guess the other thing to say about volcanoes and monitoring is that, uh, scientists are always working hard to improve our understanding of monitoring data.

[00:38:56] Tina Neal: And we're also working hard to expand our monitoring footprint. That means putting [00:39:00] out more instruments so we cover more volcanoes in a better fashion. Um, that's largely dictated by resources, but that's part of my job now is to find more resources. So we're a good trajectory, at least in this country, of increasing our ability to give [00:39:15] early warning.

[00:39:16] Tina Neal: And, um, through time we're getting better at it. We're, we're, we're able to detect things earlier with more instrumentation. And so, um, I'm hopeful that we're gonna get better. . Yeah.

[00:39:28] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Cool. No, that's interesting. That's really useful. I like [00:39:30] that analogy of, uh, you know what, if you prepare for volcanic eruption, you're prepared for a lot of other things at the same time.

[00:39:35] Dr. Jesse Reimink: That that's, that's, uh, that's useful. I like that. Never considered that before. I mean, I've never lived right near a volcano either, so, um, but I, I would get this sense of this sort of limited amount of [00:39:45] worry that you can, uh, add to your life. That's, uh, yeah, I'll have to think about that a little bit more.

[00:39:50] Dr. Jesse Reimink: But Tina,

[00:39:51] Chris Bolhuis: let's get a little technical here. Um, again, with volcanoes and how the earth works. So I really have two questions that, that kind of came to mind. [00:40:00] One is how, you know, how are volcanoes and seismic activity or earthquakes related? Uh, cuz that was certainly something that was going on, uh, in the, you know, 2018 Hawaii event.

[00:40:12] Chris Bolhuis: And then also where, [00:40:15] what causes these spurts of activity with something like the Hawaiian hotspot.

[00:40:21] Tina Neal: Yeah, well, I mean, there's the simple answer and then there's the, the longer answer, which is we still have a lot to learn, uh, obviously. Okay. But in general, [00:40:30] earthquakes are intimately related to volcanoes for a couple of reasons.

[00:40:35] Tina Neal: They reflect the state of stress inside a volcano, and that stress can change with, with the structural state of the volcano, [00:40:45] but particularly with one magma and gases are moving within a volcano. Um, so earthquakes happen when magma moves and puts pressure on the rocks and opens micro cracks or gases and fluids come off of the magma and [00:41:00] begin to strain the rocks and, and develop earthquakes and or, or gen vibration, something we might call volcanic tremor.

[00:41:07] Tina Neal: Seismic tremor. Uh, so earthquakes generally seismic activity is a broader family, uh, uh, term to encompass [00:41:15] all kinds of earthquakes. , it's a great tool to, to find out the state of activity at a volcano. Is it quiet or is magma moving? Um, and and so that's one reason. Seismic networks, instruments on the volcano that [00:41:30] are tracking earthquakes that allow us to detect them and locate them precisely and understand the character of the seismicity, what kind of earthquake it is.

[00:41:39] Tina Neal: Uh, this is like the gold standard of volcano monitoring. And all volcano [00:41:45] observatories use that tool and have seismologists on their staff that interpret these data. Um, most volcanic earthquakes related to magma moving are pretty small. Um, you might feel some, but many of them are, are very tiny [00:42:00] and have to be detected by dense networks of instrumentation.

[00:42:04] Tina Neal: Now you do get these bigger earthquakes occasionally at volcanoes like the 6.9 on May 4th and 2018 at Kilo. And in that case it's a, it's essentially a [00:42:15] volcano wide response to a, to a changing volcano wide event. So in that case, the Magna was being injected into the RIF zone. It was putting pressure on the south and mobile flank of the volcano and basically pushed it towards the ocean to the [00:42:30] C word un buttress side.

[00:42:32] Tina Neal: And that the flank failed along a, a basal fault. And that failure coincided with the 6.9 earthquake. So it was a, a big wow structural response to a, a big event in the [00:42:45] volcano. Um, so there are different classes of earthquakes that happen at volcanoes depending on exactly what's going on.

[00:42:52] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Hmm. That, that's really cool.

[00:42:54] Dr. Jesse Reimink: And, and Chris, the magma pulses, that's an interesting one too, the sort of magma pulses, especially at a place like [00:43:00] Hawaii.

[00:43:00] Tina Neal: Um, oh, I, I didn't really address that, but, um, yeah, there's a really fascinating earthquake. Family. We call it a swarm going on right now in Hawaii below the community of Pala. [00:43:15] It's about 20 miles or so.

[00:43:17] Tina Neal: Um, southwest of the summit of eaa at a depth of, of 25 miles or so is this just cloud of earthquakes. And it, we don't really understand what this [00:43:30] is. The, the best model really has it reflecting some process at the head of the, of the column of magma that's rising from the hotspot, but exactly how that then differentiates into the plumbing system to feed monolo a kilo.

[00:43:44] Tina Neal: And LOI [00:43:45] volcanoes is a complete unknown and uh, something of an area of really active research right now. So there's still a ton left to learn. Lots of PhDs left to be.

[00:43:56] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yes. There we go. Keep all the students very busy doing this type of stuff. That's [00:44:00] great, . Very good. Um, Chris, did you have a follow up on that?

[00:44:04] Dr. Jesse Reimink: You looked like you had another question. Uh, I don't, I have a lot. I mean, you have tons of questions. I'm sure we as like we both do. I do.

[00:44:11] Chris Bolhuis: I I do. How well do you understand the [00:44:15] plumbing network of Hawaii?

[00:44:18] Tina Neal: We have a, a fuzzy cartoon. That's

[00:44:21] Dr. Jesse Reimink: a really interesting question cuz actually Tina, I wanna just jump on that cuz the way you've been describing, you know, the eruption of 2018, it seems like you [00:44:30] have a pretty good grasp of it.

[00:44:31] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Like you're talking about a lot of like features that I would have pr not imagined we knew about really as a community. So, yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. .

[00:44:40] Tina Neal: Yeah. Maybe I'm, I'm underselling our understanding a little bit. We, we have a, it [00:44:45] depends on the volcano, of course. Um, I mean, we have a, a, a pretty good idea of the EAA plumbing structure because we've had more than a hundred years of observation at eaa.

[00:44:55] Tina Neal: Um, and so we understand that there's a Summit Magma Reservoir [00:45:00] complex and then, uh, two rift zones that, that lead from the summit in different directions and the same at Mona Loa. Uh, and we can draw cartoons that illustrate that. And indeed, in 2018, as we've talked about, we had magma draining from the [00:45:15] summit going into this rift zone core and erupting 20 miles downstream.

[00:45:20] Tina Neal: But in detail, it starts to get very fuzzy. We don't know exactly what the geometry of the Summit Reservoir really is. There's [00:45:30] a, a shallow, more northerly component and a deeper, more southerly component. But we don't know how they're connected. They are connected. How, how, how deep are they? Well, the, the shallow one is a, a kilometer or two below the surface.

[00:45:44] Tina Neal: Okay. And the [00:45:45] deeper one is more like two or three or four kilometers deep. Again, in,

[00:45:50] Chris Bolhuis: when that fills up, do you get to, do you see that like from seismic

[00:45:56] Tina Neal: data? We definitely see changes in the pressure [00:46:00] state of that system, um, based on earthquakes and also the ground deformation because the kilo will actually inflate and deflate like a balloon depending on the, the fill state [00:46:15] of that Summit Reservoir system.

[00:46:16] Tina Neal: Absolutely. And we measure that. Very cool. In a variety of ways. We have tilt meters that look at the ground slope and we use gps, which tells us the same kind of thing. Wow.

[00:46:27] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Wow. That is very

[00:46:28] Tina Neal: cool. Okay. But, but your, your [00:46:30] question is an important one, and I, and you, and you wanted to get a little bit at where the future of Vulcanology is going.

[00:46:35] Tina Neal: And I think. Being able to more clearly define those plumbing sys that plumbing system in detail. What are the real boundaries of the [00:46:45] geometry? How do these different reservoirs connect? Are there, are there valve systems between these different parts of the plumbing and what do they look like? I think in the next 10 years we're going to be getting better at defining some of those for some [00:47:00] volcanoes where we have good instrumentation and we can do some good experiments.

[00:47:04] Tina Neal: For instance, um, one of the things we'd like to do at Kilo A is put out like a thousand nodal seismometers. These are these little coffee can size seismic instruments that you can put [00:47:15] out for short term deployments, and they are basically out there collecting information all the time in a very dense array, and it allows you to basically do an x-ray of, of the subsurface.

[00:47:26] Tina Neal: So things like that will allow us to go from a fuzzy cartoon [00:47:30] to a slightly clearer cartoon.

[00:47:33] Dr. Jesse Reimink: So, and, and is this development, the ability to do this, is this like a technological development? Is it a, like a cost of producing these seismometers? Is there some other data set that is going to be really instrumental in pushing [00:47:45] this type of, um, imaging the magnet chamber forward?

[00:47:48] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Or is it sort of seismometers getting smaller and cheaper? I guess it

[00:47:51] Tina Neal: is seismometers getting smaller and cheaper. I mean this, this sense of miniaturization in all of our sensors really has driven a lot of technological [00:48:00] change. You know, the ability to have a seismometer in something the size of a coffee can makes it much more nimble.

[00:48:07] Tina Neal: You can, you can deploy them and take them, take them out the field really quickly and move 'em around. It really allows you to, to get a much [00:48:15] denser array in the field. Uh, same thing with gps. You know, the first GPS came to Hawaii in, was it late eighties or no, no, early nineties maybe. Yeah. They were the size of a big trunk and you needed a truck to carry them around.

[00:48:29] Tina Neal: um, [00:48:30] and you had to stay up with it and babysit it all night long. But now we have real time ones that are out in the field and, and they're much smaller. And so that miniaturization of all sensors is just gonna continue and make us these types of observations easier and more powerful. [00:48:45] So

[00:48:46] Dr. Jesse Reimink: is that, is that type of development, um, well, I have kind of two questions.

[00:48:51] Dr. Jesse Reimink: First of all, like, what is the value in knowing in turning this fuzzy picture into a clear picture? I, I think I kind of, it kind of makes sense for, for something like ea [00:49:00] you know, where, oh, if, if the Summit mag chamber that's usually here is draining, it's gonna go, it's gonna punch out down there probably, or, or something along that is, is first of all, so my first question is, is that correct?

[00:49:10] Dr. Jesse Reimink: And second question is, does that same sort of imagery or better [00:49:15] imagery of the magma chamber, does that help when you're looking at other volcanoes like Yellowstone or the Cascades? Like is, is it. Equivalent across these different volcano types.

[00:49:25] Tina Neal: Well, there are general principles that are probably equivalent or at least, uh, [00:49:30] comparable across volcanoes.

[00:49:32] Tina Neal: But in point of fact, every volcano is a little bit unique and it will have its own sort of structure and per personality. So in the long run, you'd wanna replicate this sort of technique at [00:49:45] every volcano of concern. But it is important for the reason that you mentioned. The better understanding you have of the internal plumbing, the better you're going to be able to interpret the monitoring data at the surface.

[00:49:57] Tina Neal: So when we will in the future, when we see [00:50:00] changes at Kilo, um, with this added insight of what the geometry of the plumbing system and the dynamics of that plumbing system really are, I think there will be more certainty in issuing the forecast, oh, this looks like just another normal. inflation, [00:50:15] deflation, or, wow, this looks different.

[00:50:16] Tina Neal: Like it's heading towards an eruption and potentially even saying where eventually, um, another example that just leap to mind is that these kinds of studies at a place like Yellowstone allow us to make some broad [00:50:30] statements about the state of the magmatic system at a big caldera and, and, um, determine whether there's a lot of available melt to erupt or not so much melt.

[00:50:40] Tina Neal: So there, there are very direct lines between, uh, an increasingly [00:50:45] focused and clear understanding of the subsurface to an understanding of the potential hazard.

[00:50:50] Chris Bolhuis: So Tina, I think a lot of people struggle with how we don't have a clearer picture of the [00:51:00] plumbing system yet with like, using all of the seismic data that is available to us.

[00:51:05] Chris Bolhuis: Like if I, if I said, Hey, draw a diagram of what it looks like below Hawaii. I envision that you would draw this massive, [00:51:15] you know, magma chamber, uh, at the base of the lithosphere, and that magma chamber then feeds the shallower reservoirs, um, you know, just below the summits and so on, with these big system of pipes leading to them.

[00:51:29] Chris Bolhuis: Right. [00:51:30] Is that kind of what you envision?

[00:51:32] Tina Neal: Sure. Yeah. That's one, one general model. But again, in, in, in the details, we start to have multiple options. In other words, when you have this rising plume below [00:51:45] the, the active volcanoes of Southern Hawaii, are there angled pipes that go to each of the volcanic systems, or are there some parallel plumes that are feeding the two different sort of lines of the volcanic [00:52:00] centers?

[00:52:00] Tina Neal: The, the LOA and the CAA lines, the head back upstream. , there's an interesting region of tremor that's been discovered, uh, deep below kilo. And is that representing a magnetic pathway from the head of the plume as it [00:52:15] ascends? Hmm. There's still a lot of questions about the details, but, um,

[00:52:19] Chris Bolhuis: and they, they just don't show up on the seismic data then, is that Right?

[00:52:23] Tina Neal: Not in a, not in a unique way that's in, well, not in a way that's interpretable in, in a unique fashion, I [00:52:30] guess is partly what I say. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Interest, interesting. So, we talked about this nodal seismometer deployment, and, um, I'm very excited that, oh, there's a University of Hawaii professor who's gonna work with H V O later in 2022 [00:52:45] to, to deploy one of these nodal dense arrays right over this cloud of earthquakes in Southern Hawaii.

[00:52:52] Tina Neal: again to try to better image the, the shallow portion of the crust there and understand what's going on.

[00:52:58] Dr. Jesse Reimink: That's very cool. [00:53:00] Wow. So stay tuned. Very exciting stuff coming out, .

[00:53:02] Chris Bolhuis: So Tina, can you tell us, uh, what your f favorite volcano is? ? Two ways. Okay. One is just like pleasing to the eye. You just love to look at it, you know, eat a lunch and [00:53:15] drink a beer and just stare at the volcano.

[00:53:17] Chris Bolhuis: And the other one is, uh, what's your, what's your favorite one to

[00:53:20] Tina Neal: study? Well, that's a very hard question. Of course, it's like asking a parent to choose their favorite child, but I, I , I would say [00:53:30] that in Alaska my favorite volcanoes are, are I have two and Antioch Shack. These are two calera systems, which are beautiful arrays of different kinds of volcanic land forms within these [00:53:45] 10 kilometer wide basins, um, and big enclosing walls with.

[00:53:51] Tina Neal: Cross sections through volcanic sequences that are very dramatic. So those are my two favorite in Alaska in terms of pleasing to my eye, [00:54:00] clo epoxy volcano and Ecuador, I've always found unbelievably beautiful. It's a good

[00:54:05] Chris Bolhuis: choice.

[00:54:05] Tina Neal: Um, yeah. Although it's interesting as it loses ice and snow through time, it's becoming a different visual.

[00:54:13] Tina Neal: But as you know, there have been some beautiful [00:54:15] paintings of Oxy Yeah. Um, through the years. So I think that one is the most beautiful for me. And then I al always have a very, very, very affectionate place in my heart for a kilo away volcano. It was my first volcano really. Um, there I spent a lot of time [00:54:30] and, um, yeah.

[00:54:32] Dr. Jesse Reimink: That's very cool. So you, you mentioned, uh, KO Epoxy and so you served for, for I think a couple, two years maybe on the United States Agency of International Development. You were the first, I think Theologist advisor to that, um, [00:54:45] agency and. What was going on there? Where did it take you and I mean, what, what's the state of international vology, I suppose?

[00:54:56] Tina Neal: Yeah, so, um, I was the first, what was called [00:55:00] Geoscience Advisor to the Office of Foreign Disaster Assistance at the US Agency for International Development. And that position grew out of the very long and successful relationship between U S A I D and [00:55:15] the Volcano Disaster Assistance Program, which is a jointly funded program of the U S G S and U S A I D.

[00:55:22] Tina Neal: It, it came to be in the aftermath of the Nevado del Ruiz eruption in 19 80, 85, I think, [00:55:30] um, where Norm Banks, a geologist at HBO at the time, convinced U S A I D, that we really needed to have a standing group. Volcanologists in the United States who were able to respond to crises around the [00:55:45] world to help the local v volcanologists and the local governments deal with these crises.

[00:55:50] Tina Neal: And so U S A I D through its Office of Foreign Disaster Assistance, began the Volcano Disaster Assistance Program with U S G S. And it grew through the years [00:56:00] and was an extremely successful hazard mitigation program. They asked for a U S G S representative to advise on not just volcanic hazards, but also other earth science hazards, earthquakes, volcanoes, um, landslide [00:56:15] tsunamis, things like that.

[00:56:16] Tina Neal: So that was my role there and I'm really pleased that I left that job in 2000. And now, um, there are similar programs to v d. in the landslide and the earthquake world. So U S G [00:56:30] S is, is helping respond to disasters in, in all these areas around the, the world. And

[00:56:34] Dr. Jesse Reimink: you personally, you worked in Ecuador, um, and where else did you sort of help, I suppose, or provide assistance?

[00:56:43] Tina Neal: Yeah, so I, I, I got [00:56:45] to do a wonderful project in, in Capmandu Nepal in earth in trying to prepare, prepare the city for, for earthquakes. Um, let's see, we did some post earthquake work in, in Columbia and landslide [00:57:00] work in Venezuela. Uh, yeah, really I had an opportunity to go to a lot of places and it wasn't, it wasn't just all disaster response too.

[00:57:08] Tina Neal: It was also trying to put in place programs to do things ahead of time to reduce the vulnerability of [00:57:15] communities. And, you know, this is U S A I D, their, their mission. I mean, they're a, an executive level independent agency in the government. That works under the jurisdiction of Department of State, but they're independent, but they, they are our arm of foreign assistance [00:57:30] abroad.

[00:57:30] Tina Neal: And so they do lots of work in both humanitarian response and, and economic development, civil society, all sorts of things. Wow. Was

[00:57:41] Chris Bolhuis: that a part of then, that program, was that a part of us [00:57:45] aiding with the pinatubo?

[00:57:47] Tina Neal: Yes. The, the, the V DAP group. This volcano disaster assistance program was central to the US involvement in Pinatubo.

[00:57:55] Tina Neal: Absolutely.

[00:57:56] Chris Bolhuis: Okay. Wow. Very cool. Okay. Um, so you already touched on it, Tina, [00:58:00] about is, um, is it difficult to get a job in Vulcanology? Because you said there just aren't a ton of them. Um, which is very disappointing to a lot of my students. . So , it's, uh, so maybe touch on that briefly again, but [00:58:15] then also what is the working degree.

[00:58:17] Tina Neal: I'm not quite sure what you mean by working degree. In other words, what are the degrees that put position you best to go into Vulcanology?

[00:58:23] Chris Bolhuis: Yes, yes,

[00:58:24] Tina Neal: exactly. Yeah. Yes. So, uh, yeah, the truth is there, there aren't a lot of jobs in Vulcanology, but [00:58:30] you know, if that's your passion, you should definitely pursue it.

[00:58:32] Tina Neal: And, um, I'm an example of somebody who managed to make that work now. So most of us are, are geoscientists. Either we have geology degrees or geophysics degrees, but increasingly, [00:58:45] um, there are people coming into vulcanology with allied discipline degrees, so physics and chemistry and um, computer science, um, mechanical and electrical engineering.

[00:58:57] Tina Neal: We need a lot of people to create these new [00:59:00] monitoring instruments. So it's becoming a little bit more diverse in terms of, of degree types. . If you wanna do research, typically you need a PhD. But I have many colleagues, myself included. Um, I stopped at a, after a master's degree, and we [00:59:15] also have many employees with, with bachelor's degrees.

[00:59:17] Tina Neal: So, uh, the full array of options are there for you. It really depends on what you wanna do. But again, I, most people come from the geosciences, but not all. And

[00:59:26] Dr. Jesse Reimink: are, are internship programs, you know, for those, you know, my [00:59:30] students who are in college and maybe pursuing a geoscience degree if they want to have your job.

[00:59:34] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, Tina Neal. That's the job I want. , are there internship programs? How do they sort of, how do you get plugged in a little bit?

[00:59:40] Tina Neal: Well, there are some, uh, student student jobs available with U S G [00:59:45] S and, um, of course it never hurts to reach out and introduce yourself at a scientific meeting or, or other venue to, to senior U S G S colleagues.

[00:59:55] Tina Neal: Um, don't be, don't be shy about writing a letter or introducing yourself. [01:00:00] There are, uh, programs like the National Association of Geology Teachers Program. That place, I don't, I don't think you have to be a recent graduate. I'm not really sure what your status is, but place early students and early career folks in observatories for [01:00:15] summer field experiences.

[01:00:16] Tina Neal: So they're out there. Um, but I also always advise people to create a resume and get plugged into the s a jobs website because that is where all of our competitive, um, [01:00:30] job opportunities are announced in the federal government. And you can set up alert whenever there's a U S G S job open, can even customize it to a certain area.

[01:00:39] Tina Neal: Good thing to, it's a good system to learn to use early if you want to work for sgs.

[01:00:44] Dr. Jesse Reimink: [01:00:45] Okay. Very useful. All right. Uh, Tina, this has, hold on. Been, hold on. I got

[01:00:48] Chris Bolhuis: one, one other one. Jesse. Tina. One thing that I just dying to ask actually is . What is the, Most dangerous volcano in the [01:01:00] United States.

[01:01:04] Chris Bolhuis: Well,

[01:01:06] Dr. Jesse Reimink: wow. What a question.

[01:01:09] Tina Neal: As with most of these questions, it's more complicated than one would think . Um, [01:01:15] I think, I think I would not get much pushback from, from my colleagues if I said, not Rainier because of, of the potential for the generation of volcanic mud flows or [01:01:30] lahars. Um, even in the absence of interruption, just, just related to an edif, a collapse of a part of the volcano and the rapid flowage down valley.

[01:01:41] Tina Neal: And there are communities that are, that are within an [01:01:45] hour or even less, uh, travel time. So warning time could be. So Rainier is a dangerous volcano, and we are focusing a lot of attention on that right now. We're trying to develop a modernized laha warning system. [01:02:00] What does that look

[01:02:01] Chris Bolhuis: like?

[01:02:01] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah, yeah. What is that?

[01:02:03] Tina Neal: A modernized laha warning system has, um, many, many more sensors in the field than we currently have. Uh, different types of sensors so that you can not only detect [01:02:15] the presence of a, of a moving lahar, but also localize it and know where it is and how fast it's moving. And then of course, uh, all of the telecommunications infrastructure necessary to make those that [01:02:30] that data moved quickly.

[01:02:31] Tina Neal: Alarms to be alert to, to, to go off in the right places, and then ultimately information to reach the urgency authority so they can make a decision to about whether to evacuate or not. Um, but that work is [01:02:45] underway. Cascade Volcano Observatory is leading that effort and, um, and doing a great job. .

[01:02:50] Dr. Jesse Reimink: And so the, the laja is a sort of a waterborne, volcanic ash sort of mudslide, I guess kind of or mud flow.

[01:02:58] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Mud flow basically. Right. And so [01:03:00] you're, describe the way you're describing is something that gives you, what, an hour or couple hours notice or, or a couple days notice depending on the, the location. Um, is that right?

[01:03:10] Tina Neal: Well, for the actual event itself, once you verify that a [01:03:15] flow is happening, um, you know, obviously it depends how far downstream you are, but the, the hazard or is, is going to be happening very quickly.

[01:03:25] Tina Neal: In other words, there are communities that are within an hour or less, um, [01:03:30] 30 minutes or so of, of the potential initiation point. It depends on where it starts in which drainage, if the volcano wakes up and we start to see earthquake activity that reflects the movement of magma. , of course [01:03:45] we'll be putting out that information and communities will begin to be prepared and at least know to be paying more attention.

[01:03:52] Dr. Jesse Reimink: No, I just, I, I ask cuz I think the lahar thing, most people think of volcanic hazards as, you know, if you're caught in [01:04:00] the wrong spot, you're done. Like there's, you can't, there's no like really warning you either gotta predict it's gonna happen or not. And, and so this lahar thing, having some early warning is, is not intuitive for volcanic hazards, I think for people.

[01:04:11] Dr. Jesse Reimink: So I That was an, that's an interesting, um, project. [01:04:15]

[01:04:15] Tina Neal: Yeah. Very important project. And of course the other part of the equation is, is c is both emergency response agencies and the communities having plans for response. So knowing what to do, where to go and how to do that. And the Washington state emergency [01:04:30] planners and, uh, the, the relevant county groups have all been working on this for a long time.

[01:04:36] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Okay. Oh, very cool. All right. Well, Tina, this has been super fun. I've learned a ton. Um, and we always end our interviews with this [01:04:45] question, which is, what has been your best day as a geoscientist?

[01:04:49] Tina Neal: That was also a hard one to pick one, um, , because I've had so many, you can pick more than one, Tina. Okay. Okay.

[01:04:55] Tina Neal: I've had so many wonderful days, but I'll just, I'll just share two. One was my [01:05:00] very first, literally my very first day on the job in, at Hawaiian Volcano Observatory in 1983. Um, it was a Monday, it was June 13th, and I was at the staff meeting being introduced and, and all of a [01:05:15] sudden kill began erupting on the east, rip tone.

[01:05:18] Tina Neal: And so my new boss, who was Ed Wolf, just very calmly said, let's go. And we got into a helicopter, and away we went. , oh man. Landed in the middle [01:05:30] of the lava fields and started walking towards the spattering cone. and I, I looked down and below my feet in the cracks of the lava flow. I could, it was incandescent.

[01:05:41] Tina Neal: It was orange and glowing and hot. Oh, wow. [01:05:45] I remember that's, I'd never done such a thing. I didn't know if I was safe or not. I, I very sheepishly asked Ed, I, I said, am I, is this okay? ? He was a real gentleman and didn't make me feel stupid. Um, [01:06:00] yeah, explained that this was safe and we were fine. Anyway, that was a remarkable day because I'd never been so close to erupting lava and it was a complete multisensory experience the other day that jumps into my mind always when I reflect on [01:06:15] this is, uh, an Antioch Check Volcano with my dear colleague and friend game McKinsey.

[01:06:19] Tina Neal: We've been working in this called era, a couple of field seasons under trying to understand the eruptive history. We started to find evidence of [01:06:30] Lake, of Lake Clays at higher elevation than the calera floor, like up on the flanks of some of the intra caldera cones. It was very confusing, and then game noticed that on the walls of the Caldera there were these subtle terraces.

[01:06:44] Tina Neal: Anyway, [01:06:45] over the course of the day, we developed this hypothesis that there had been a large lake inside this calera that was no longer there, and that indeed it had drained out the one gap in the Caldera wall in a catastrophic fashion. [01:07:00] This was really game's idea, and we accumulated the evidence and published on it in the coming years.

[01:07:07] Tina Neal: But to me, this was just a wonderful experience about exploration and discovery, and to me it was exactly the kind of stuff that [01:07:15] a field geologist loves to do. You're telling the story of the landscape and you're searching, and sometimes it involves digging a hole. You find evidence that tells you what happened in the past.

[01:07:26] Tina Neal: And, uh, that will always sit with me as a, as a really [01:07:30] warm, wonderful experience as a ologist.

[01:07:33] Chris Bolhuis: That's amazing. Did you follow it

[01:07:34] Tina Neal: downstream? Well, on the way out, uh, of the Caldera that summer, we flew over the, the river. And this is in the wilderness and it was kind of a long distance, [01:07:45] but we saw evidence of, of bedrock plucking that was also consistent with a very large flooding event over bedrock.

[01:07:51] Tina Neal: And then the next summer we saw big flood deposits downstream, and the story became more solid. But, uh, just that, that [01:08:00] sort of light bulb moment that came on after accumulating different observations was, was really.

[01:08:07] Chris Bolhuis: Oh, that's

[01:08:08] Dr. Jesse Reimink: unbelievable. Yeah, those are two great stories to end on. Tina. Thank you very much.

[01:08:12] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Good pick Tina. Yeah, those are great. [01:08:15] Well, thanks for your time, Tina. We really appreciate this. Uh, we've learned a ton and, uh, it's a real pleasure talking to you. This is, uh, this has been really exciting, but I was excited about this for, for several, several days leading up to this. So

[01:08:28] Chris Bolhuis: yeah, Tina, again, [01:08:30] we, we really appreciate it.

[01:08:31] Chris Bolhuis: I know you're busy and just to, to give us this time is just, uh, so generous. So thank you

[01:08:36] Tina Neal: so much. You're welcome, Jess and Chris, nice to meet you both. Good luck and we'll be in touch.

[01:08:44] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Hey, that's a wrap on this [01:08:45] interview. Thanks for listening. As usual, check out all of our stuff at the social media accounts at Planet Geo Cast. Go to our website, planet geo cast.com. Send us an email. We love that stuff. And. If you haven't yet, check out Camp Geo conversational textbook for the geosciences. If you need some basics, share it [01:09:00] with friends. I know personally a lot of people that are friends of mine or family of mine who've always kind of been curious about what it is. I do as a geologist like this because it kind of gives them a little bit of a [01:09:15] framework to understand geology, understand the basics of geoscience. So go check that.

[01:09:20] Chris Bolhuis: And Jesse, this is a wrap on our volcano theme. What is coming up next? What's our next re-release theme?

[01:09:27] Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah, we're gonna release a couple more episodes here [01:09:30] on the geology. Elements, really. We've done a couple couple on different elements. Lithium being one, iridium being another one. And I, I, I'm a fan of these. We've got a new one gonna release at the end of this on Neodymium, which I'm really [01:09:45] excited about. and so I, I like these, this sort of geology of a particular element that is important to society is kind of an interesting theme we got going on.

[01:09:52] Chris Bolhuis: That's right. What's up next?

[01:09:53] Dr. Jesse Reimink: All right. Peace.

[01:09:54] Chris Bolhuis: Enjoy. [01:10:00]