Dr. Jesse Reimink: I'm great man, that, you know, we always do this. We, we, uh, after an interview, we sit down and, and record the intro after the discussion. Right. People probably know this by now. You know, I've always liked. Well, not always [00:01:15] wine. I, I kind of have always liked wine. I don't know a lot about it and I always knew that there was like some sort of geology involved, but this was way more interesting than I actually really expected. I mean, I was excited for this, but [00:01:30] I was, I I, I was kind of blown away.

Chris Bolhuis: I totally agree. I learned a ton about how geology and the rocks and you know, and their, their role in the formation of soil and how all of that affects the flavor of the grapes and, you know, [00:01:45] farming practices. it was just a really cool thing to, to learn that much about it. Brenna did an awesome job explaining what her job really is, and I think we need to spell this word for everyone so they can understand what a terroir is and maybe [00:02:00] even look it up if you want. So a terroir, that's how you pronounce it. It is t E R r O I R. Terroir.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: terroir and the person we interviewed here is Brenna Quigley, and Brenna received a [00:02:15] bachelor's degree, a dual major in aquatic biology and geology as she talks about in this interview from, uh, uc, university of California, Santa Barbara. She also has a master's in geology and she has sort of developed her own. [00:02:30] Terroir, geology, winery, vineyard Consulting Agency, as well as a podcast host. So she hosts the podcast called Roadside Terroir, and Chris, you just spelled that. So Roadside Terroir is her podcast, and you can find out more about Brenna on brenna [00:02:45] quigley.com. That's Brenna, Q U I G L E Y. Dot com. And so that's, that's Brenna. And this was really interesting, really exciting for me personally. I learned a ton about, like you said, Chris, both the geology and how it affects wine. [00:03:00] And I, I think I'm gonna be learning a lot more in the future based on this episode is really interesting.

Chris Bolhuis: I feel the same way. I'm inspired to go out now and learn more about this whole thing and, and wine in general as well.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yes, absolutely. I mean, and it's a good, [00:03:15] uh, the learning process is probably quite fun when you're learning about wine. You know,

Chris Bolhuis: That's right. That's right. I mean, she found a way to combine traveling and drinking wine. You know, you and I, Jesse, being geologists, we found a way to incorporate [00:03:30] traveling because we get to, it's an excuse to go see wonderful things. Right. She took it to a whole nother level. Um, she's a genius.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: And her best day, , doing geology. Her answer to that question was my dream. That is, I think Chris, you would probably agree, that's [00:03:45] our like dream day. So she's got it pegged. She is an aspirational, uh, geologist here, Brenda Quigley. hey, with that bef. we jump to the episode, remember you can find Camp Geo. You wanna learn all the basics, all the terminology that we use, that is sort of introductory level, but we don't cover it. We don't have the time [00:04:00] to cover it in the podcast. You can go to Camp Geo, our conversational textbook and learn all about that with the key images you need. That's the first link in the show notes. You can follow us at Planet Geo on all the social medias at Planet Geo Cast. Our website is planet geo cast.com and [00:04:15] please, please, please send us an email, planet geo cast gmail.com. We begin tons of listener questions. We have some more office hours episodes coming up very soon, so get your questions in. We love them, they're really interesting and uh, we like talking about those.

Chris Bolhuis: Right on. [00:04:30] Hey, Brenna, quickly come in your way. Enjoy.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Well, uh, I have a glass of wine in front of me, red wine here. I don't know if Chris does too. Probably.

Chris Bolhuis: Well, I, no, but [00:04:45] Brenna, you didn't answer my email, so I didn't, you know, I didn't know what to do, so

Dr. Jesse Reimink: know

Brenna Quigley: You know what happened actually is I did answer your email and I even included a question about the mic and I forgot to hit Send

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Well, on that [00:05:00] note, welcome to Planet Geo. Brenna. It's a pleasure to have you and, uh, look for, oh, what do we have? What kind of wine are you drinking? First of all, baby, we should start with That that is a nice glass too.

Brenna Quigley: Oh yeah. These are incredible. They're, um, fancy. They're like paper thin. It's, [00:05:15] if you look at them the wrong way, they shatter, which is incredible .

Chris Bolhuis: That it wouldn't last in my

Brenna Quigley: Yeah, sometimes you can drop them and they don't, but other times you like hold them too tightly and they just kind of burst. But,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Okay. And it looks like it's a white wine.

Brenna Quigley: yeah. So I'm [00:05:30] cheating a little bit. This is, uh, cider made by a friend of mine called, it's called Scar of the Sea, is the label. And he makes wine as well from the central coast of California. But I love cider and I love his cider. And I always, you know, we talk about terroir [00:05:45] and wine and it's always good to point out that there's terroir in cider and chocolate and all sorts of other things.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, cool. Oh, excellent. Oh, That's great. Well, welcome to Plan Gio. We're excited to have you. Um, and so this is an interesting conversation for me. I, I did not grow up like drinking [00:06:00] wine at all. So I know very little about wine as Chris will, uh, probably attest to. I know that there's red and white, but I, there is. So I went to a graduate school in. In Canada and there's this huge like, legacy of Canadian geology professors [00:06:15] who they retire and then they all go consult for wineries in British Columbia. Um, and it seems like a great gig to do in retirement. And so that's how I kind of learned the word terroir, and everything. Um, but so I'm [00:06:30] excited to talk to you about this cuz uh, it, it's something that's very interesting to me, even though I know nothing about it.

Brenna Quigley: Yeah. absolutely. Well, I'm so excited to be here.

Chris Bolhuis: So Brenna, we are gonna start off with a question that we ask all of our guests. Okay. Because I [00:06:45] definitely remember the moment that I fell in love with geology. I mean, it was, just this big, huge impact on my life and I knew it right away. And I think Jesse had a kind of a similar experience. Did, did you ever have like this aha kind of moment with you where you just [00:07:00] knew, this is where I want to be, this is what I want to do. How did you end up here?

Brenna Quigley: Uh, yes, absolutely. So I went to school in California and I knew that I wanted, I'm from Minnesota, I'm from the Midwest, and so I knew that I [00:07:15] wanted to go to undergrad in California and I knew without a doubt in my mind that I wanted to study marine biology. And so when I went to look at schools with my parents, um, we drove down the coast. We [00:07:30] drove down the highway one, all of California. We actually started in Seattle and drove all the way to San Diego. And my dad is a geologist and so, He spent the whole drive watching the, um, watching the cliffs on the side of the [00:07:45] road. And I spent the whole drive watching for like dolphins and whales and stuff in the ocean. So I was like looking out to my right and he was looking to his left. And I eventually went to school at uc, Santa Barbara and i,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: I, mean, just what a place to [00:08:00] go to school. I mean, my God. Okay. All right. Well, there we

Brenna Quigley: it's a dream. It's beautiful. Um, it's hard to concentrate sometimes, but, um, but it's beautiful. And my freshman year I took a geology class because I kind of thought it was [00:08:15] funny, like, my brothers are geologists too, and I was kinda like, oh, this will be great. Yeah, . And I was like, you know, like, it'll be fun. I can like call, for help or whatever. And it was really just an intro class and I, my dad had been trying to tell me that geology's cool for a long [00:08:30] time, never listened, couldn't care. And about halfway through that semester, I went on a road trip down to Southern California and I caught myself looking to my left at the cliffs instead of at the water. And I was [00:08:45] like, oh, no, I'm ruined.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh that is, that is a great story. So I, I mean, chris hold on. Let me back up Chris. Cuz you're the first person that we've asked this question to who actually has, you know, family members who are geologists who kind of caught the bug. But there's [00:09:00] like two ways kids can go, right? They can. Definitely wanna do what their parents do or like, definitely not wanna do what their parents do. So did you grow up with like rocks around the house? Were you kinda like turned off by too much geology growing up? Is that, was that kind of the dynamic or,

Brenna Quigley: [00:09:15] probably, I mean, I just didn't care. Like i, my dad would tell me these like amazing things and I was just kinda like, okay, whatever. like I just didn't care. But I, I do think that it really. Gave me a, an appreciation for the natural world, [00:09:30] you know, and for, you know, being outside and for science. So I knew that I liked those things. I just thought that I liked the biology side of it.

Chris Bolhuis: So was there something particular that you saw on that trip, or was it just like the [00:09:45] realization that, wait a minute, maybe I've been just fighting this.

Brenna Quigley: Yeah, I think it was just the putting together of the pieces, I think it was really being able to see that you can see a glimpse into this big picture pretty quickly. And I think that I found [00:10:00] that really satisfying. Whereas, you know, marine biology, you're like, cool, I'm gonna swim with sharks. And then you're like counting phytoplankton cells for four years and like it was a little bit of a letdown,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: so Brenna, the backstory here is my, my father was a high school biology teacher, [00:10:15] and Chris's father was a high school biology teacher. So, you know, we grew up in the biology sphere my sister's a high school biology teacher too. And, and so, you know, I'm the black sheep who went into geology and Chris and I have a running joke that we go to family events and, and it's always this biology versus geology [00:10:30] thing. So happy to hear you converted, but I think you do have an aquatic biology undergrad degree and a geology degree. So did you have this transition, was it midway through where you're already like, too deep into biology or did you still like it so that you went for both, uh, both degrees.

Brenna Quigley: I [00:10:45] think I still liked it and I mean I was so, like my whole life I wanted to be a marine biologist and so I think, I really thought the geology thing for a while. \ I really wanted to do the marine biology and I was like, well maybe like I'll just do some, cuz I was, um, I was also good at it, which I [00:11:00] think was probably, cuz I had all this like geology stuff in the back of my head and. And that's nice when you're in college and you don't feel like you're very good at a lot of things, . So I liked,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, that little, that little hint of being good. I mean, that, I guess this is, I don't know if it's the same in Santa Barbara when you're there, but, you know, the, [00:11:15] the places at Penn State and when I, where I went to undergrad, the geologists were like the ex engineers and ex pre-med people who, who didn't really like it or didn't want to, work that hard for a grade and went over to geology and had a lot more fun and did some really cool stuff too. So I, I, think, uh, [00:11:30] there's something to be said about that. Just sort of enjoying what you're doing and, and being good at it.

Brenna Quigley: Yeah.

Chris Bolhuis: yeah. Berna, I'm curious, what, what did your dad do then, and what do your brothers do?

Brenna Quigley: So they're all in, uh, like mineral exploration. So they're in the junior mining [00:11:45] industry and do kind of grassroots prospecting,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: In, in, uh, up in Minnesota, or are they kind of, uh, in places all around.

Brenna Quigley: mostly based in the Midwest. So Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin. And then one of my brothers is in, um, [00:12:00] like North and South Carolina is mostly where he's based. Um, he's also done some work in other parts of the world.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, that's totally interesting. So I went, I did my PhD in Canada and, you know, junior exploration companies, especially minerals, are everywhere. And I never really could, could put my finger on the industry, like, [00:12:15] understand the industry itself. There's so many little companies and, uh, there's a lot that, uh, sort of go under frequently and then get, are reborn in various ways. But I didn't know that this existed in the Midwest, that there was companies that, that operated in the Midwest. Um, that, that's really interesting. [00:12:30] That's cool.

Brenna Quigley: yeah, absolutely. There's the Canadian shield down here a little bit too. Yeah.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: so. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's, that's amazing.

Chris Bolhuis: And so, Brenna, you worked in the mining industry too, didn't you? For a while.

Brenna Quigley: Yep. So I ended up doing my master's degree [00:12:45] based in kind of structural controls on, sin Orogenic gold and

Chris Bolhuis: to explain what that is like , jesse doesn't know. So let's explain this for jesse.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: too busy looking at my wine right now. I'm ready. [00:13:00] Okay. Yeah. Minerals. Let's get to the wine here, right? No. Okay.

Brenna Quigley: Yeah. So just looking at how tectonics, how structures, faults and folds can control where you would have a, you know, an economically viable [00:13:15] gold deposit particularly. and so I was, I was doing that. It was, um, really, you know, inspired by the work that my family did, and again, being kind of really excited by the idea of being able to. Of work with them, but in my own way. And so we all kind of did our own things. I [00:13:30] was really into structure and you know, one of my brothers is more into, you know, geochemistry and one of them's more into, more like actual core logging and that kind of stuff, and, defining things like that. And so it was, I felt like I liked having my own niche within the same world.[00:13:45]

Chris Bolhuis: Right. And did you stay out in California to do that?

Brenna Quigley: Mm-hmm. I did. So partially because I did the double major by the time I was done with my undergrad, I was pretty checked out on biology. I'd finished most of that degree, but I was, I felt like I was behind in the geology [00:14:00] part. And Santa barbara has a really great department and I felt like there were pieces of it that I didn't have. And also at Santa Barbara as, so I stayed for, to do my master's for another two years with my advisor.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: so you did, uh, how many years did you kind of work in the, in the exploration industry then?[00:14:15]

Brenna Quigley: Um, so that's a good question because it really overlapped with the wine. So it was probably for, you know, two years where that's most of what I was doing. And then they, it just kind of like swapped, like I did more and more wine work [00:14:30] and less and less, um, exploration work. So I would kind of get mostly with my family. I would get kind of hired out as a consultant to do various things here and there. And, did a little bit less of it as the wine stuff got going, but most of the wine stuff at the beginning didn't pay any money. So

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Okay. [00:14:45] And is that what you're doing full-time now? Is is the, the terroir work. Okay. So could you define that term for us? terroir, right. Is how it's pronounced? Yes. Okay. can you define that for us? Cuz I've heard it defined by money. People who know a hell of a lot less than you [00:15:00] do, and they all have different definitions. So could you, could you like nail it for us here?

Brenna Quigley: Yeah. So there are really two definitions, but the main thing to keep in mind is that, you know, terroir is basically the complete set of [00:15:15] natural circumstances that make up the growing conditions of a certain place. That's everything. So it starts with the geology, but it's also the topography, the slope, gradient of the hill, the aspect, the facing direction of the hill, the climate, you [00:15:30] know, down to the microclimate between the differences, you know, between vine divine, and all of those characteristics that go into making one spot. And it can be a vine, it can be a country And then the secondary definition [00:15:45] is that it's also the characteristic taste that you can potentially perceive that sort of represents or encompasses all of those things.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: That's interesting cuz I always kind of thought of it as like the [00:16:00] soil, as like a soil first, uh, sort of thing. But you're describing it as this all-encompassing natural phenomenon, which I frankly kind of like more, I guess, and, and makes more sense a little bit, I suppose. Um, but it's also the taste profile. sorry [00:16:15] Chris

Chris Bolhuis: no, I just, I wanted to back up a little bit because now we've defined what a terroir is, but. We haven't really defined what you do. Like, okay, so you worked in the mining industry, now you don't do that. So what do you do now [00:16:30] and like, how did that transition take place? It's kind of an interesting story and I'd, like to hear it.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah, this is totally interesting. I'm

Brenna Quigley: Yeah. Yeah, it was, um, as, as many things are, it was just a total incomplete accident. You know, you say you talk [00:16:45] about getting bit by the geology bug, like we talk about getting bit by the wine bug. you just, you get into it pretty quickly. Um, but, so I started working at a tasting room when I was living in Santa Barbara, and so that's also how it all kind of overlapped,

Chris Bolhuis: in grad school

Brenna Quigley: uh, [00:17:00] yeah. So yeah, like right as I was finishing grad school,

Chris Bolhuis: Okay.

Brenna Quigley: and so I, it was, it was a tasting room that was really cool. They had this big beautiful like chalkboard map on the wall and they had soil samples in little jars, and they had geologic maps out on the [00:17:15] tables just to kind of like lean into the whole terroir thing. And I just thought it was so cool. And, you know, I, I kind of wanted a, a little escape from, the rest of grad school craziness and, um,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: That depressing. Well, that you get in when you're writing your [00:17:30] thesis that everybody goes down. Yeah, yeah. I'm familiar with it. Yep. Yep, for

Chris Bolhuis: Yeah. You're a part of it. You're,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: potentially my, my, graduate students may argue I'm part of the problem. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Bolhuis: yeah.

Brenna Quigley: and I mean, I really just was really into it really [00:17:45] quickly, and because it was, you know, a very like terroir focused place, they were really encouraging of me doing more work in the wine industry. And I just started right away. And I got really lucky. I met some really amazing professionals who were [00:18:00] really, really really passionate about geology. I mean, I had no idea. Like I grew up with a family of geologists and no one ever thought it was cool. And then all of a sudden I'm you know, at a wine tasting and there's these like famous sommelier who are like, oh my God, you're [00:18:15] a geologist. And I was like, do you know, did you mean that

Dr. Jesse Reimink: yeah, yeah. Right. Do you know what the word is?

Brenna Quigley: Yeah. I was like,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: that you'd say that.

Brenna Quigley: I said something else? Like, no one's. It was bizarre. I mean, I, I remember calling my dad [00:18:30] and I was just like, it's the strangest thing, but people just listen to me talk about the difference in, you know, grain sizes for like 15 minutes, you

Dr. Jesse Reimink: That's amazing. I mean, Chris and I, we have, we are, you know, people are contractually obligated to listen to us for 15 minutes, but, but [00:18:45] you're, they're like doing it for free. That's amazing. And by choice.

Brenna Quigley: Yeah. It was the craziest thing. I mean, it really was whenever I think about like those early days, I'm just, I mean, I, it was the enthusiasm from everyone that I met that I was just like, this has gotta be a thing.[00:19:00] why would you do anything else? When people are just you know, hanging on your every word about the difference between intrusive and extrusive, volcan, volcanic rocks. It's

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah.

Brenna Quigley: you know?

Chris Bolhuis: All right. So I'm, I'm, this is crazy actually. is this

Dr. Jesse Reimink: [00:19:15] Chris, you No,

Chris Bolhuis: to where you are, like,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: abandon your teaching career and go do

Chris Bolhuis: I might like, this is, so Brenna, is this niche to where you are, do you think? Or do wine people or, or you know, farmers, is this what they really like? They [00:19:30] pay attention to this. I mean, I never knew, like, I'm shocked actually.

Brenna Quigley: Yeah. No, it's all over the world. I mean, I have worked all over the world at this point, and, I mean, people are so kind and generous and truly enthusiastic and truly excited to learn. [00:19:45] And I think that's the amazing thing about the wine industry is it is this intersection of so many parts of the world. And so obviously there's, you know, chemistry and, um, organic chemistry that are involved in learning how to make wine. There's, you [00:20:00] know, farming, there's a ton of biology, you know, botany, and there's also human history. So people are really interested in like the deep history of different places. there's art to it. So there's a lot of like, Artistic expression and creativity. [00:20:15] And I think because of that, no one can ever know, like, no one can ever be an expert in, in almost anything. And so there's this really amazing community of shared knowledge and shared, you teach me something, I'll teach you [00:20:30] something, and we're learning together. And this kind of like feeling of we all have something to learn and we all have something to share.

Chris Bolhuis: That's really interesting. And, uh, a bunch of new questions just popped into my head. So, but first though, Brenna can,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: [00:20:45] wine cuz I'm gonna

Chris Bolhuis: Like

Dr. Jesse Reimink: cuz Chris is getting going here.

Chris Bolhuis: Um, Brenna, can you though finish that like the thought off of how did you, alright. What was the transition then? When did you decide I'm gonna leave the mining industry and this is the [00:21:00] direction? Like, can you do that?

Dr. Jesse Reimink: and I wanna know kind of also, were you kind of going off on your own as like an independent consultant or like, how did you structure that, that sort of excursion? Because I think there's a lot of people, like a lot of my students would be curious about how do you make a career for yourself? So I think, [00:21:15] you know, kind of, kind of frame it in that way. Maybe that would be very useful.

Brenna Quigley: Yeah, so I, I mean, I really started off doing, I just said yes to everything I did, anything and everything that I possibly could that would keep me involved in the wine industry. And so I, [00:21:30] I mean, the first thing really was, I ha I knew someone who was a wine importer, and he wanted to kind of better develop some of the like geology sections on his website. So from each country that he imported in, he wanted to kind of have the basics And he just wanted to [00:21:45] learn more about geology. And so we actually traded, so I would go over to his house, you know, once every two weeks and he would give me like a wine tasting lesson and I would give him like a basic intro geology lesson. And we did that for about a [00:22:00] year. And at the end of it, actually he invited me to go to France and he was like, well, you ha like now let's apply it. Like let's go check out these vineyards and, And I was like, yeah, I'll put together like a whole trip and research everything. We actually went to basically like the French [00:22:15] Geological survey office and met with some people there to really get into it. And, and again, it was sort of as an exchange for the trip

Chris Bolhuis: So, alright, Brenna, hold on a minute. You have taken geology and trips to a whole nother level. Like [00:22:30] this is why we go into geology because it's an excuse to travel and now you've like, you pulled the carpet out from underneath. Everybody else with this, I mean this is a whole different level of scheming here that's going

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah. It's no longer like, going to look at volcanoes is the coolest [00:22:45] thing. It's going in a wine tasting trip because

Chris Bolhuis: this is,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: I mean, this is amazing. Yeah.

Chris Bolhuis: this is unreal.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah.

Brenna Quigley: Now, I mean, my parents for the longest time, I mean, they're super sweet and very supportive, but they called it my ruse. They were just like, I can't believe you're getting away with this

Chris Bolhuis: [00:23:00] Yep. Yeah, this is unreal.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: mean, you know, that, that's a lot of, uh, jobs though, or just, you know, how did you pull that one off? How did you figure out how to make that your job? Um, so

Chris Bolhuis: you went to France?

Dr. Jesse Reimink: you went to France? Yeah. So you're saying yes to everything, which, uh, for, uh, let me just like [00:23:15] underline and, and double click on that. Say yes to everything. If you're building something, if you're going for something, just say yes to everything. That's excellent advice, I think to, to anybody.

Brenna Quigley: Yeah, and, and so I also, like, I worked at a, at a. So I, you know, for a minimum wage, just helping to sell [00:23:30] wine so that I could be there to taste things and so that I could learn about different wines also so that I could get the employee discount,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah,

Brenna Quigley: which is amazing

Dr. Jesse Reimink: never a bad reason. Yep,

Brenna Quigley: but, but also like, that's, that's kind of a tricky thing with wine is you really do have to [00:23:45] taste the wines. You have to know them, you have to understand them. And I think , something that was maybe a little different from my approach because I was, I was 25 and I didn't know anything and I didn't expect anyone to listen to me about anything. And so I think I was lucky [00:24:00] in that sense because there are a lot of geologists who kind of retire into the wine consulting path and I mean, that's great. It sounds really great. But I think that they miss the wine part pretty often. They miss [00:24:15] the connection to the wine and they miss the ability to really connect with wine professionals and to treat them like really high level. Professionals who maybe they don't, you know, they probably don't know hardly any technical geologic [00:24:30] terms, but they do know their properties and they do know a lot of kind of personal experience. And so I think,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: that, that's a good point.

Brenna Quigley: yeah, so I was just lucky that I was, you know, like a very young female who was really, you know, like I bartended until [00:24:45] two o'clock in the morning. I, you know, I was like working many jobs to kind of keep my foot in everything that I wanted to do and to really start from square one with wine.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: very cool. so can you kind of tidy that up in like where. Are now you working full-time on, [00:25:00] on wine stuff and we'll get into what wine stuff is. I think, uh, next as sort of like, let, let's dive into the geology part, but is that what you're doing kind of full-time? Are you, working for yourself here for the most part? I mean, you working for clients, but you're like a consultant or contractor. Is that, is that kind [00:25:15] of what's going on?

Brenna Quigley: Yep, absolutely. And so I do it kind of, you know, it snowballed and so it, it really started by doing a lot of education work, a lot of kind of behind the scenes things, , with importing and exporting and educating, you know, wine professionals, [00:25:30] sommelier, winemakers, and kind of how to help them understand the basics of geology. And that eventually slowly led into me being able to do my own field work, so do my own vineyard explorations which is what I really wanted to do from the [00:25:45] beginning, but I didn't feel totally qualified. So I, I dipped my toe in kind of slowly to being able to help people understand their actual properties and help people understand how to, you know, farm more responsibly, more precisely. And kind of with [00:26:00] respect to the, the geologic basis of, of each place.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Chris, I think think that provides a nice framework to dive into.

Chris Bolhuis: I think so, but I want to know how long the transition took, like was, how long was this process, if you you, you said dipping your toe in and [00:26:15] like, all right, I'm in, this is what I'm gonna do. And, and I'm assuming too, like, are, are you a consultant? Is that okay?

Brenna Quigley: Yeah. So it's probably been almost eight years. Yeah.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah. Nice.

Brenna Quigley: on eight years.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: and now you're, uh, mean you do a [00:26:30] bunch of, of things, uh, based on your website. I mean, you use some really cool drugs. your artwork is very, is very cool. I, I really liked those. Um, but winery or a vineyard comes to you presumably vineyards would come to you mostly. Is that mostly the

Brenna Quigley: Yeah.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: And, [00:26:45] uh, what happens?

Brenna Quigley: Well, usually they, that's a good question. Um, you know, usually they come to me and they just want to learn more, or sometimes they just wanna communicate better what they already have. And so that's a lot of what we do where they're just kind of [00:27:00] like, you know, we understand our property, but we are having a hard time communicating what makes it really unique and special. And so that's kind of the simplest kind of projects that I do. And that's why I started doing the drawings is because it was just kind of like, how can we, how can [00:27:15] we take something complex? You know, like wine is already kind of snobby and so you don't really wanna like, then also get too technical and snobby and like really push people away. But it's kind of how can we, how can we really bring people in to just appreciating [00:27:30] the place and appreciating this like little sliver of the earth as much as you possibly can in a simple kind of beautiful, approachable way.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: And so that includes, uh, sort of mapping, you said you, you're doing field work and going and, and doing some mapping of [00:27:45] the soil, of the geology,

Brenna Quigley: Yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean, like I said, I spent a long time just doing whatever someone wanted. So maybe someone would say, I want a summary of the geology. Someone would say, I want a map. Someone would say, I wanna actually understand the terroir [00:28:00] and what it is that is making. Like they're like, we know our property, we know this hill slope tastes like this. We know this one tastes like this. We don't know why. And so it was kind of like, okay, like let's actually dig in. And so as I kept doing that more and more, then it would be like, all right, let's dig a hole in the ground [00:28:15] and check it out And so then more involved studies that are usually pretty long-term studies will be, you know, digging holes, either auger holes , and usually both auger holes and like soil pits that dig into the earth in between the vines. [00:28:30] and using that and then taking soil samples, but also unders, you know, we really try to go to the bedrock so we can kind of understand what's really controlling all of this and using that to kind of then come up with a story of what's going on on that [00:28:45] property and how it really might relate to the rest of the factors of terroir to the, you know, slope, the aspect, that kind of thing. And also maybe the taste of the wine

Chris Bolhuis: Okay. So I

Chris Bolhuis: want to talk about

Chris Bolhuis: that, Brenna.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: many questions. They're just

Chris Bolhuis: I do too. I really [00:29:00] do. So I'm going, Jesse, I got, I beat you to the punch. So Brenna, um, . Same grape, different slope. And you're saying different taste and the vineyard wanted to know kind of why. Right. So can we talk geology then? Like [00:29:15] what have you found? , how can the same grape, same vineyard. So really the same slice of land, just, you know, subtle differences. Tell us what you found, tell us why.

Brenna Quigley: , so my main thing is that I always say, you know, terroir is this complex thing [00:29:30] with lots of different pieces to it. But the geology is the first, the main, the like immovable, unalterable, literally like the bedrock, pun intended of what makes a place, what it [00:29:45] is. And so, as you know, the different types of rocks are gonna weather at different rates and in different ways. And so that's going to shape the topography, it's going to control the way the weather and climate is able to move around the topography. [00:30:00] And then more precisely, different types of bedrocks are gonna form different soils with a different chemical makeup. Some will weather quickly and have really deep rich soils. Some will be super, super shallow. Um, and then they'll also weather into [00:30:15] different textures. So more clay, more sand, more rock, less rock, which will influence. Things like how that piece of the property is able to hold heat or is able to hold water

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, wow. I never thought about the heat aspect. Oh, that's [00:30:30] interesting. Okay.

Brenna Quigley: yeah. And so the rocks really, I like to think they control everything. Um, you know, or

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah, I, we agree. I can speak for Chris. We agree. They control everything. They control the Biology

Chris Bolhuis: right. That's right.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: the way, unless it's a, you know, a nice grape that makes good [00:30:45] wine.

Chris Bolhuis: That's right. Yeah. That's, yeah.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: stay there.

Chris Bolhuis: Okay. So

Chris Bolhuis: continue

Brenna Quigley: Okay.

Chris Bolhuis: interested in what you're saying. Yeah.

Brenna Quigley: so the other thing that I have to make a point of saying, especially to geologists as opposed to wine people, [00:31:00] is that vines and vineyards are super unique in that they actually grow on rock, which is amazing. And so sure there's terroir to other crops certainly, but what's really exciting, and I think also why. [00:31:15] Wine people are so into geology is that, if you're growing tomatoes, they're probably gonna be grown on a more typical, silty loam that's at the bottom of an alluvial valley and it's, feet thick and there's, bedrock is really far away.

Chris Bolhuis: Sorry, can you [00:31:30] define what a Silty LO is?

Brenna Quigley: Yeah. So loam is just a, mixture of textures of clay, silt, and sand. And a silty loam would be like, has a little extra silt

Dr. Jesse Reimink: you're talking about like, uh, you know, these things are growing on places that have a lot of soil

Brenna Quigley: mm-hmm.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: a [00:31:45] lot of bear rock.

Brenna Quigley: not a lot of bear rock. maybe not even any little cobbles. Like they're just deep homogenous, water holding rich, luscious, they're just there to like feed. food, you know, like they're there to make food. They, they hold all this [00:32:00] stuff, they've got everything. Um, vineyard soils are classically really, really weak soils. They're hard to compare

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, interesting.

Brenna Quigley: soils.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: in weak soils. by meaning. They have lots of cobbles. And, and, uh, this brings up a real quick questions just so we [00:32:15] can like all visualize this. How deep do grapevine roots go? how, how thick does it matter? Like how, when you're augering how deep do you go, I guess? Or can you just kind

Chris Bolhuis: because you said you go down to Bedrock, so

Brenna Quigley: Yeah. Well, so we go down to bedrock and [00:32:30] beyond. So the roots travel through the fractures in the bedrock. I mean, I've seen soils that have, you know, 10 meters of soil on top of them, and then there's true solid bedrock with vertical fractures through it. And you, [00:32:45] can dig down deep and you see the roots. You know, I don't think anyone really knows. You can find like examples.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Did You say 10 meters deep?

Brenna Quigley: Yeah. I mean, I don't know how people know that number. So I'm like, did you dig a 10 foot [00:33:00] hole into the rock? Or, basically it's, they will go down as far as they can until something stops them. And so often that

Dr. Jesse Reimink: that's amazing. For a vine to ha, I I'm blown away. I was thinking, you know, it's like a foot maybe or something, okay. so it matters. [00:33:15] You have to go down to bedrock and deeper to really evaluate you know, what the grape is seeing as far as the geology is.

Brenna Quigley: so possibly, I mean, one thing that we look for is, you know, they don't always go down that deep. There are things that can stop them. So there can [00:33:30] be like a hard pan, there can be too much clay that they can't make it through or that constricts them. Um, there can be like a chemical barrier, especially in areas that have a lot of limestone where it just gets to be way too alkaline and too harsh. Um, water. They don't like to have [00:33:45] their feet wet. So if there's a water table, they'll kind of like pull up. Um, and then also

Dr. Jesse Reimink: that's a cute

Dr. Jesse Reimink: little, uh, image there. the wine's

Brenna Quigley: Yeah, yeah,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, that's great.

Brenna Quigley: yeah. And Um, the other, [00:34:00] one last thing is that you also have to, you may have to encourage them. So if people are, fertilizing and watering their vines, they're actually irrigating them. You tend to get most of the roots in just like a little cone right around the vine. But you can encourage them. It also makes them [00:34:15] more resistant to changes in climate or to, you know, extreme weather if it's best. If you encourage them to push their roots as far down as possible because then they have, more consistent access to water when they.

Chris Bolhuis: Bern, I have a question that just popped into my head. Um, [00:34:30] do grapes then and their deep vines, they must help slope stability quite a bit then, right? I mean,

Brenna Quigley: It's a good question.

Chris Bolhuis: you probably don't have a lot of mass wasting.

Brenna Quigley: Probably not, but I think, it really depends. It's actually something I should know more about. But in some areas you're [00:34:45] allowed to terrace the vineyards because then it stops things from like, if you put your rows going straight down, you do get a lot of erosion in between the rows. it's also another farming question where, you know, because the vine roots can handle so much, there's a [00:35:00] lot of really horrible kind of chemical farming that's done to get rid of everything except the vine roots. And so it's like if you ever see a vineyard that doesn't have like any grass around it, that's probably not a good sign. Um,

Chris Bolhuis: Okay.

Brenna Quigley: cuz they're getting rid of [00:35:15] it. And if you allow cover crops to grow in between, That's one thing you can do to encourage the roots to go down farther. and it can also help, stop erosion and, and increase lip stability.

Chris Bolhuis: Okay. Interesting.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Fair.

Chris Bolhuis: can I go or are you gonna go, all [00:35:30] right,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: I approve it. This, just this

Chris Bolhuis: All right. All right. Brenna, is there a perfect recipe for a terroir for growing grapes for wine

Brenna Quigley: So people think so. People think people are on a constant [00:35:45] search for it. and one of the main things that people go back to is burgundy. So in sort of northeastern France, are some of the finest, some of the most expensive, the most famous, the most literally like [00:36:00] mythological wines in the world and there's other regions that kind of compete as well, but the main key that people think is limestone. So people really, really think that shallow limestone soils are kind of the key and like the holy [00:36:15] grail. I have had so many people. Ask me and just do anything they can. Like, people are desperate to find limestone in California, and unfortunately there's just not a lot of it,

Chris Bolhuis: that's so interesting. I would've thought, , slope direction, [00:36:30] slope angle, moisture content. But you're saying limestone's more important. So crave a basic soil basically is

Brenna Quigley: So, yeah, I don't really agree with that. I think that like the wines of Burgundy are exceptional for many reasons, and also [00:36:45] aspect has to do with it. So in Burgundy there's, you know, Jurassic limestones on this kind of like perfectly, almost perfectly east facing slope. And so in that part of the world, east facing is a really important thing [00:37:00] because they're summers are so humid, kind of, you know, like in the, in the northeast where, you know, it's, really humid and that contributes to a lot of mildew and stuff. You don't want like, Gross things growing in your grapes. And so those east facing slopes, [00:37:15] the sun when it rises in the morning allows that to kind of burn off right away and kind of get some like early morning heat. the basic soils tend to, actually, there's papers about this. I don't remember all the details, but more [00:37:30] basic soils tend to produce wines that are higher in acidity. It has something to do with the, um, ability to uptake potassium or something. and so that's kind of a rule. So you get kind of acidic wines. and then the limestone thing is pretty amazing because the limestone [00:37:45] actually, as it weathers, pure limestone just dissolves, right? And all it leaves are impurities. And so you can get, 10 inches of soil. But that's something that's come from, the weathering of, I'm totally making this up, but the weathering of, 10 meters [00:38:00] of limestone and has concentrated all of these like, it's really, really, really rich soil, but it's really thin. Um, and so it doesn't get too rich. It's not like a deep clay soil that would have a different, expression than these kind of, you know, it's, but it's really, it's like a Goldilocks thing. It's [00:38:15] like all of these pieces that interact together in the right part of the world.

Chris Bolhuis: do you feel like you can taste the soil? does that sound stupid? Like, I don't know,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: yeah, that I mean, that's actually a really good question, Chris. Like could you say, oh, this is a limestone soil wine [00:38:30] and this is not, or, or what is the, the thing that you can taste if you can't taste soil? of these terroir, you know, parameters? I guess

Brenna Quigley: yeah, I think, I think that you can, to some degree, I mean, wine people love to blind taste like that's just our favorite thing is, [00:38:45] and because you learn, you learn about things without, uh, any sort of preconceived ideas about what they are. And so I've done a lot of blind tasting for soils, and sometimes I've done really well, and other times I, you know, have been totally wrong. There's a lot Of reasons.

Chris Bolhuis: Of

Brenna Quigley: Yeah, [00:39:00] there's a lot of reasons behind it. But, um, I do think, and what I learned early on is that I, I think the main correlation that you'll find between certain wines and the specific soil or, or the specific geology is in the [00:39:15] texture. And so I think it's a mistake to say like, you know, limestone smells like raspberries or something. Like a lot of the aromatics that are developed in making a wine come from, complicated interactions during the fermentation process, but a lot of the [00:39:30] textural. Yeah. And you know, keep in mind there's so many things that can happen. to a wine after those grapes are picked. but the consistent things are in textures and so, you know, you can kind of imagine it if, and it's not just in the rocks, like, so if you have [00:39:45] a really deep, really, really rich soil, like say you have a vine planted where you would also grow tomatoes, the wine's probably gonna taste pretty like fleshy and rich versus, to an extreme of that, say you have a vine at the top of the [00:40:00] same hill, the deep soils at the bottom, and you go to the top of that hill and there's, 10 centimeters of soil and it's windy and the vine has to work really, really hard. You're gonna get a wine that's a little bit more austere and a little bit more [00:40:15] powerful probably. it, it really had to fight to get there. And so you can kind of do that on really broad scales and then you can kind of get into like crazy little details that are, you know, maybe we're

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah. So on that detail, I mean, that's really interesting and that's a perfect, I mean, what a great visual right there. [00:40:30] Um, I guess one of my questions that I wanted to ask before Chris, so rudely interrupted me earlier, is, um, is, um, how, uh, how localized are differences in terroir? if I'm standing on one row of, of grape vines, [00:40:45] how far can I see different parts of ter things with different terroir characteristics, or is it the next row over? Like, I guess, what is the scale of differences that you would map a geologist walking around a.

Brenna Quigley: So I always start by [00:41:00] saying that, you know, there's terroir at every scale. Kind of like how there's, geology at every scale, right? Like you can look at at structural shapes in mountain ranges and you can see those same kind of, shapes under a microscope. so that happens with terroir too. And so you can [00:41:15] totally talk about terroir in terms of the terroir of Napa Valley versus Sonoma versus Santa Barbara County, or name any French wine region you can talk about. the difference between this vineyard here and this vineyard, 10 miles south. And you can also go [00:41:30] to a vineyard and you can see sometimes they're pretty homogenous. But you know, it's like you can always kind of find differences and I mean, sometimes it's right in your face. Like sometimes, especially in Burgundy, you'll the top of the slope, you'll be standing on white soil, you walk, [00:41:45] 10 feet down and all of a sudden it's bright red, like blood red, and then you walk another 10 feet down and it's just like deep brown. You know, it doesn't take a genius to to identify some of those differences. But, what I like to approach things by are you know, where [00:42:00] like if you have experience with the property, like what are the vines doing? maybe that'll help us start, maybe there's something that looks significant to us, but the vines aren't behaving differently or the wines taste the same. Or maybe there's something that, we can't quite understand why [00:42:15] just from walking on the surface, but it's they're really weak here. They're struggling, they're super vigorous here. Let's find out why. Or, you know, sometimes like that's why people will call me is they'll be like, I don't know how to explain it, but these two parts of the property are just totally different. And [00:42:30] then there's also the metrics of how carefully are you tasting, so you can probably find differences because there's. Literally infinite ways that things could be different. And so you kind of have to decide and you have to like, put your box around it in a way that makes sense. That is [00:42:45] farmable, that is manageable. That's understandable. And communicable.

Chris Bolhuis: so Brenna, you go and do this for, for farmers. I really have two questions that I, burning to ask. One is, do the grape farmers change their practices based upon [00:43:00] your analysis of the terroir? That's the first question.

Brenna Quigley: Um, in short, yes. I mean, I'm one person and so I don't work with like tons and tons and tons of people. And so usually one of the qualifications of me working on a project is that it should be[00:43:15] a thing that we're in together. And so the goal is we'll work together, they'll help me understand their property and you know, I'll help them tell a story. And so I think that there's always that piece to everyone that I work with because it's certainly not like a requirement if you own a vineyard that you have to do terroir studies. So they're, [00:43:30] they're probably pretty nerdy already. Like they're super into it already. Um, but then, yeah, exactly. But then, you know, more practically, I think the things that I get really excited about working on or or developing more are [00:43:45] things like, you know, different terroirs hold water in different ways. So how can we use that to, mitigate irrigation? Especially in California, almost everyone irrigates their vines. So, you know, how can we more precisely irrigate vineyards so that we're wasting less water and, where are maybe [00:44:00] certain vineyards that are, or certain parts of a vineyard that maybe you could experiment with dry farming and not have to irrigate and, baby those vines into kind of sustaining themselves or, you know, how are there parts of the property that would be. Easier to transition into organics or into [00:44:15] biodynamics or into, you know, things like that or, so those are the projects that are, that get really exciting for me

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Uh, can I, can I ask a follow up on, on that real quick, Chris, before I just interject here to, so that's describing like you, you, you've worked with sort of in place, vineyards that are,[00:44:30] currently active. Right. Have you ever worked with anybody who's, who's thinking about building a vineyard somewhere and they're sort of asking you to survey preempt before they plant, the vines and stuff like that?

Brenna Quigley: a little bit, but it's pretty casual usually at that stage. I, because there's so much that goes [00:44:45] into it and it's such an expensive thing, you know, there's like selecting root stocks and, you know, which is a whole thing. There's, there's a lot of , super expensive things. I tend to get nervous and that's more stuff that I'll do really collaboratively, like with friends where it's kind of [00:45:00] like I'm not quite comfortable. not getting sued,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yes. I

Dr. Jesse Reimink: gotcha.

Brenna Quigley: like in my ability to not get sued, but

Dr. Jesse Reimink: that, uh, it's a fair reason to not do

Brenna Quigley: yeah. But that doesn't mean that, yeah. You know, like there's fun things that you can do, but I, I, there's always a lot of caution with that

Chris Bolhuis: [00:45:15] Yeah, that makes sense. Um, Brenna, my second question was, I mean, there are a lot of vineyards out in the west, you know, Washington, Oregon, California, but even we have 'em a, we have a Michigan, and I'm sure Minnesota does do, they're all over the place. Right? [00:45:30] how big of a market are we talking about for your line of work? Do you know what I mean? Like,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: That's a great question. Yeah.

Chris Bolhuis: for, for geologists to go into,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: I, actually want, double down on that one because, you know, there, some people in my [00:45:45] research group who will probably listen to this and want to, you know, perhaps do an internship with Brenna Wigley. And so, you know how I Yeah, that's a great question. How big is the job market here?

Brenna Quigley: I mean, I think it's both. So I think that it's huge. I think that there's so much potential and I am [00:46:00] like constantly trying to recruit more geologists and you know, like I said, I'm one person. There's only so much that I can do. And I think that there's also just endless avenues for different kinds of ways to approach it. And different, like things that you can do to [00:46:15] help, you know, build a better understanding of how geology is related to, you know, growing grapes. there are vines everywhere, you know, they're all over the world. It's a great opportunity to travel. It's a great opportunity to be. Outside, you know, [00:46:30] doing the things that like helped us all fall in love with geology in the first place. the trick is, is that the science, and, you know, the science is kind of like moving slower than the industry as itself because it's not an industry that's, it's not, you know, like an engineering industry [00:46:45] that's based on, the slow scientific method way of doing things and published papers and stuff. So I also think that there's a huge opportunity to write more, say this kinda carefully write [00:47:00] more comprehensive scientific literature on how geology is related to terroir. You know, there tend to be small departments and they tend, from the papers that I've read, they tend to kind of miss the point. It's the same thing where it's like they're not really [00:47:15] talking to the wine growers to kind of, you know, really figure it out. And also it's so complex that, I mean, I swear to God, I read one paper that was like weird, maybe this won't sound crazy to you, but that was like, oh, we studied these three vineyards and then, when we had a bunch of like [00:47:30] graduate student tasters, they were unable to determine the difference in the wines. And it's like, well,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: No, I know plenty of graduate students. And being a former graduate student, I can tell you that is not a signal

Brenna Quigley: yeah. It's like, you know, you do have to have trained tasters. [00:47:45] You do have to, you know, it is a skill. and so I think that even the, even the research side of it has a lot of opportunity. but then the kind of caveat to all of this is that there aren't a lot of examples out there. There aren't a ton of people who are doing it, and it's pretty difficult to, even if [00:48:00] people are really interested in, you know, what I'm doing, it's difficult to propose a project to someone or even to kind of talk about budgets when it's not something that they've ever had in their budget. Even if they have a lot of money to spend, they're kind of like, We don't have a place for this yet. And [00:48:15] so I also think as that gets more common and as more people do it, and as it's successful and as it's helpful and as it makes a positive impact on people's farming and on, you know, potentially their actual yields and their, profitability and their relationship with their customers, [00:48:30] then I think that's something that can get built into budgets. And I have projects that I'm, long term with that I've been working with for three years. So like that can happen. But there's a lot of, kind of against the grain fighting because you really have to train the client as opposed to, like, if they're [00:48:45] hiring a, a wine making consultant, they're like, here's the going rate. You know, like, here's the industry standard, here's where that fits in our budget. And so there is a big, there's a lot of work to be done on the business side

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Well that, I mean, That sounds really interesting. It sounds like you're in a, potentially a good position to, to kind [00:49:00] of grow, you know, outside of just yourself, as well as you've described it. So, yeah, I mean, I, I said it jokingly initially about like undergrad interns, but you know, I, I'm sure there's undergrads or graduate students who would freaking love to do a summer internship, you know, [00:49:15] kind of working and thinking about this type of stuff. Uh, and, and just, just for the sheer experience of it, um, and to put it on a resume. So, it sounds really cool. And, um, just last one, one last thing I kinda wanna touch on the educational aspect, cuz you know, initially you sort [00:49:30] of described it as that was your way in, was the educational component or the. Wineries or vineyards wanted to convey terroir and see how geology integrated. Is that still a major component of what you do, or is it more the sort of [00:49:45] technical analysis for the, you know, internal documents of the vineyard or, or something like that?

Brenna Quigley: Yeah, at this point it's definitely still, I would say it's definitely about half and half. , but the half of education has gotten kind of taken over by the podcast [00:50:00] stuff, which isn't, I mean, it's a great thing, but I, I mean, I want it to always stay half and half. And right now the podcast is taking over that. But, I would like to keep doing, the maps as well, and keep doing, you know, I've, I've done a lot of kind of like [00:50:15] talks at various groups of things. Or maybe it's for a restaurant group, maybe it's for, you know, the Wine Education Council or things like that where, you know, you can really integrate that.

Brenna Quigley: I'm kind of

Dr. Jesse Reimink: a good intro into the podcast. I guess Chris did, or did you have a wanna?

Chris Bolhuis: Not yet. Not [00:50:30] yet. It is a, it's a really good segue, but I have another question, bna. So,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Segues

Chris Bolhuis: uh, I know it's just, but this has been Vernon, like, all right, Brenna, what does it look like when Brenna Quigley rolls up to a [00:50:45] vineyard? Steps out? What do you like, do you have your rock hammer? Do you have your brunon compass? , do you have your geology hat on? Like, what does this look like? I

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yes. she's

Chris Bolhuis: I gotta know. I'm like

Dr. Jesse Reimink: When looking

Brenna Quigley: Yeah.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Chris, [00:51:00] you're a dumb ass, which he is. You're right, Brenna, you're right. He is a dumb ass

Chris Bolhuis: for what this whole scene looks like, cuz I'm having a hard time with it.

Brenna Quigley: All right. Yeah, I mean, that's exactly what it is. , it depends on where it is, but like, and especially Napa Vineyards are pretty fancy. Everyone has their like fancy [00:51:15] vineyard cars. And like I roll up in my field vehicle that is not a fancy, like, beautiful pickup truck that looks like it,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: What, is it a Jeep? is it is it an old beat down pickup truck? What is it?

Chris Bolhuis: this?

Brenna Quigley: a rav4, which is a great

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, nice.

Brenna Quigley: [00:51:30] it's, it's a great little thing, but it's in rough shape. Um,

Chris Bolhuis: Yeah. Perfect.

Brenna Quigley: Yeah.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: be. Yeah,

Brenna Quigley: Yeah,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: some adventures. Good

Brenna Quigley: it totally has. Um, I always have my raw camera. Always, always my, Master's advisor [00:51:45] taught us early on that he was like, we, we did our field workout in like the snake range in northeastern Nevada, and he was like, I don't care if you bring water. I don't care if you bring sunscreen. I don't care if you bring food, but I better not catch you without your rock hammer and your, hand [00:52:00] lens. He was just like, I don't wanna see it.

Chris Bolhuis: All

Dr. Jesse Reimink: There

Dr. Jesse Reimink: you go.

Brenna Quigley: He's like, you're not doing geology or, and your compass obviously is like, you're not

Chris Bolhuis: Of course. Yeah.

Brenna Quigley: So I still feel that way.

Chris Bolhuis: Good to know. All right. I

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Perfect.

Chris Bolhuis: good now. we can segue back into the other thing.[00:52:15]

Dr. Jesse Reimink: So the segue into the podcast, which is called Roadside Terroir. And you're in your second season now, or have you started the third, second season. Okay.

Brenna Quigley: Yeah. It's a monster of a second season so it's a two year long second.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: So give us, the pitch on this [00:52:30] and also how, you know, sort of the, how you got into it, how it's going, kind of update and, and what, where you're going in the future with it. I'm generally, as obviously we're on a podcast, so we're generally interested in all things podcast

Brenna Quigley: Yeah. So I mean, this is easy [00:52:45] to explain to geologists too because it is based on the geologic guidebook series, roadside geology. And so I had this idea from like the first trip that I went on to France where you go on these trips everyone was kind of like, oh, it's [00:53:00] amazing. It's like we have our own geologist in our pocket. And so we would be driving through these wine regions and people would say, what's this? What's that? What is this over here? You know? And as much as I could, you could kind of explain like, oh, there's a major fault there and this is a groin and that's why there's the east facing slope. And so the goal is that [00:53:15] it's, the original goal was that it's that same feeling of like, we want you to feel like the listener feels like they are on a road trip through a wine region with us.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, that's great. Love it, And so for the listeners who don't know, uh, roadside geology are these like, well in the US at least they're state by [00:53:30] state guidebook that kind of give you the roadside geology tour of the state and all the kind of interesting stuff. Chris and I love these. We have used these on many a rock collecting rockhounding trip to states other than Michigan. I think I have probably 15 in my bookshelf right now, if [00:53:45] not more. These are great. so I love the idea. That's a great, great pitch for it for sure.

Brenna Quigley: Yeah. And so it kind of like was supposed to be a simple thing and snowballed into something humongous and like now we're in Burgundy, which is, a huge, [00:54:00] huge task. and so we started in Santa Barbara, cuz that's where I was living at the time. And it was really just, it's kind of, you know, what do you see when you drive? the 1 0 1 on your way to a vineyard. And then when you're driving through the Santana Valley, what do you see? And we do, [00:54:15] within each episode, we have interviews with multiple producers. We also talk to uh, sea Urchin diver, who talks about, she calls it Meir, which is, you know, ocean terroir,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, interesting. Okay, Cool.

Brenna Quigley: and you know, how, basically how [00:54:30] amazing is our planet and how this geologic story is underneath our feet all the time. And we can kind of get a sense of, of deep geologic time and how it influences farming. How it influences food. Like we talk to chefs sometimes. And also of [00:54:45] course a lot of how it, impacts wine and also how it impacts human tradition and culture and history and

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, that's very cool. So in the second season is, uh, burgundy, which is harder to do because of the history or because of the size of it? [00:55:00] What, why is it a bigger thing to bite off?

Brenna Quigley: Yeah. Well, it's ambitious because it's, you know, probably one of the most historic and, and currently most important wine regions in the world. And there's a lot of people, you know, I have a book right on the table over [00:55:15] here that has like over a thousand pages on Burgundy and there's multiple books that have over a thousand pages. And I don't really know what I was thinking. It was possibly a huge mistake, , but

Chris Bolhuis: Yeah, that happens. That happens. Um, Okay. [00:55:30] So What is your favorite wine?

Brenna Quigley: that's a good question. So, I mean, right now I'm drinking a lot of Burgundy cuz I'm working on the Burgundy podcast. But that is a pricey habit. Um, so it's, it's a [00:55:45] tough one, but there are lots of affordable and delicious burgundies that you can get. And, I love them. I love them all. I would say find a producer or find people who, who truly, truly care about the land and just find any wine that is dedicated [00:56:00] to expressing terroir because whoever made it is really trying to tell you a story about what makes this one little piece of the earth

Brenna Quigley: really unique.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: So, do you have, uh, one in mind, like a a, a vineyard or, or a, a winery? You have in mind we [00:56:15] can put in the show notes and, you know, we

Brenna Quigley: Okay, so if we're talking burgundy, I. go with probably Shreve who are we did harvest with this past year, and they're incredible. They also have a whole range of wines. So most producers will also [00:56:30] have their, like, entry level wines. And so you're gonna wanna look for, the word like Boronia, which is basically the French word for Burgundy, and that'll be their kind of like entry level regional wines. Um, I mean, sh Trav is the first name that comes to mind all the [00:56:45] time for me personally. and then if you wanna think about California, I would maybe say there are some people doing some really amazing things and, scar of the Sea. So the, the cider that I'm drinking right now, they also make Pinot noir and Chardonnay and some other things that are [00:57:00] amazing. Um, his wife's label is called Lady of the Sunshine, and she does incredible, like some of the best wines, some of my favorite wines too open and drink hands down of anything else. And they are always affordable, which is

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Okay,

Chris Bolhuis: That's awesome. Okay.[00:57:15]

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Um, I guess a sort of a follow up a little bit is I guess what other crops, you mentioned cider as having terroir and it's curious to me that cider wood, does beer, do hops have, [00:57:30] like what, what, what would you put in this category of like terroir matters versus it doesn't so much matter.

Brenna Quigley: Yeah, I think there definitely is. With beer it's a little bit more complicated because the fermentation is different and they actually, you know, often add things to the beer to flavor it. [00:57:45] Um, so the, and the conversation with the hops is a little bit different. I, I'm certain that there is a terroir two hops, like especially to like the hops themselves, of course. and then chocolate is a good one. There's definitely [00:58:00] like terroir to really find chocolate. coffee is probably the, one of the main, beverages, mezcal

Dr. Jesse Reimink: oh, totally. Yeah. Okay. That

Brenna Quigley: a huge, like, terroir following, which I'm like tempted to do a [00:58:15] podcast season on mezcal, which would be super fun.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: I mean, my God, you should, You definitely should. for sure. Go for it,

Brenna Quigley: Um, and I actually think that there's probably a good conversation to be had about marijuana.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: I mean, that, those all kind of make a lot of [00:58:30] sense actually.

Chris Bolhuis: so Brenna, and we're getting close to the end here, so where can people find out more about you?

Brenna Quigley: Yeah. So I do technically have a website called brenna quigley.com, which is shamelessly. Hasn't been updated in a long [00:58:45] time. but it has the basics.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: a tenured professor who, you know, has, if you haven't

Chris Bolhuis: Yeah. Nah,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: you know,

Chris Bolhuis: are pretty searchable though.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: It's true. You are very googleable.

Brenna Quigley: Okay. That's good. Um, and then Roadside Terroir has a [00:59:00] website that has tons of information. We actually do a good job of keeping that pretty up to date with what's going on. and then I'm on Instagram just at Brenna quickly.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Okay. So we always wrap up our interviews with asking this question. So, what has been your best [00:59:15] day as a geologist? And it can be exploration geologist or wine geologist, whatever you would like to say.

Brenna Quigley: Yeah, I, I love this question. And um, you know, there's probably. A more adventurous, exciting example. But the first thing that came to [00:59:30] mind was, over covid. I was in California and my family was back here in the Midwest, and my dad and brother wanted to do some field work out at a property that's kind of been in my family forever out in jackpot, Nevada. And [00:59:45] so we all kind of drove out to Nevada during lockdown and we got to do like a few days of, intense field work in the desert of Nevada, which is just one of the most spiritual places for me. I think, you know, the desert [01:00:00] is a, is a special thing and. in the past few years. Prior to that, they'd been helping me with all of my wine stuff. So they'd been helping me run analyses, helping me kind of analyze them and understand what was going on. And I was able to bring a really special bottle from [01:00:15] Napa of, uh, height seller Trailside Vineyard, which was my first like, huge project that I completed in full and was really, really proud of that they helped me do. And so, you know, we ate some like cheap desert food and drank really excellent bottle of [01:00:30] wine. And it was, it was just a really special day.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: I mean, that's a great day right there. Just

Chris Bolhuis: answer. Ah, I love

Dr. Jesse Reimink: a good answer,

Chris Bolhuis: It is

Dr. Jesse Reimink: moderate food, and great alcohol. I mean, that is like [01:00:45] everything you could possibly want in a geology day. Oh, amazing. So I, I know we've just passed our final question, but, I guess. one question that's always kind of, uh, been in the back of my head is how do you learn about wine? I guess, is there a good recommendation you would have for [01:01:00] somebody who is present, company included, pretty ignorant about wine, who kind of always was curious about learning more? Is there a good way to do it or has it kind of come down to, like, I've heard that some people can just taste flavors and some people just can't, [01:01:15] for instance, I I don't know what, what's your thoughts?

Brenna Quigley: I think some people are naturally inclined to be like super tasters, but I think that's a bit silly. I think it's a muscle and I think that anyone can learn about [01:01:30] wine. drinking it and enjoying it and thinking about it and just trying to make, conscientious choices about what you drink and taking, you know, it's so, it's a fun way to learn. And I think any wine shop that you go to, if you talk to who's [01:01:45] there, or at a restaurant, if they have a sommelier, they love talking about it. They love teaching people about it. And so just, just starting with buying things that you think are fun and, thinking about it and using it as an excuse to buy more and think more. there are a lot of [01:02:00] also like really good introductory resources for learning about wine too. So, you know, I mean, I actually started with Wine for Dummies,

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Okay.

Chris Bolhuis: I was gonna

Brenna Quigley: and yeah, so there is a. Wine for dummies. There's, and then there's other layers of that too. And there's really [01:02:15] kind of beautiful books written by, people that are a little bit more like novels or that are more like textbooks or however your like learning style is. There's podcasts, there's, you know, I think anything that you can do to be thinking while you're [01:02:30] drinking will turn into more questions and more questions and more curiosity and you'll enter the rabbit hole just like the rest

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Okay. Well, with that, uh, Brenna Quigley, thank you very much for joining us

Chris Bolhuis: Yes.

Brenna Quigley: All right.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: I've learned a ton and, and you've sort of gotten me excited to [01:02:45] learn about wines and the

Chris Bolhuis: Yeah, I feel the same way. I feel a little inspired Brenna. Not a little, A lot of actually, like this was a super fun interview, so thank you so much for donating your time. We

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah, absolutely.

Brenna Quigley: much for having me and for [01:03:00] being in.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: we'll, we'll have to have you on sometime again soon to talk about an, you know, an update again,

Brenna Quigley: Okay,

Brenna Quigley: great. Thank you so much.

Dr. Jesse Reimink: Hey, that's a wrap for Planet Geo this week. Just a reminder, you can follow us on all the social medias. We're at Planet Geo Cast. You can go to our website, planet [01:03:15] geo cast.com, and there you can subscribe, you can support us. There's a support us page, and we always appreciate that. please send us an email if you have questions for us or for Brenna quigley. Send us an email, planet geo cast gmail.com. Our guest, Brenna Quigley can be [01:03:30] found@brennaquigley.com. We'll put that link in the show notes. And if you could do us one huge favor, please leave us a rating and a review. We haven't asked for those in a while, but it really helps the algorithm whenever you do that and, uh, you know, show us some love that way. If you like Planet Geo, [01:03:45] the last thing is the first link in your show notes is our Camp Geo educational conversational podcast. We have all of the stuff that Chris and I teach in our physical geology classes. Basically college level introduction to geoscience with images is [01:04:00] there. So click on that link in the show notes and you can listen and learn at your leisure. Take care. [01:04:15]

Jesse Reimink

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