The Geology of Oakland - Andrew Alden Author of Deep Oakland
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, Christopher que
Chris Bolhuis: how are you doing? What's up, doc? You good?
Dr. Jesse Reimink: You know I'm good man. We just had a great conversation, uh, about a, a very cool book
about a cool city. And that was very fun.
Chris Bolhuis: I agree.[00:00:30] the book is called Deep Oakland, how Geology Shaped a City. Um, I read it about a month ago, and I read it actually over spring break. I was in Louisiana and this was my get up in the morning, drink a cup of coffee and read a few chapters, um, about a city and, and how this. It was just this great story of how Geology and humanity intersect and shape decisions with a, you know, in regards to a city. I thought it was really cool.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I agree. I agree. And you know, the author is Andrew Alden. He's a [00:01:00] geologist and an early geoscience writer. He worked for the US Geological Survey and actually I remember the about.com days, but he was the Geology writer for about.com, which was kind of interesting. I didn't know that before our discussion, but a practicing geoscience writer and you know, really deeply. interested and in love with the city of Oakland. And it's a, I mean, the Geology in this area, the Bay Area in San Francisco, Oakland Bay area is so exceptional that, of course, the story of the city and the, The interaction between humanity and geoscience is actually super [00:01:30] interesting as well. and there's, there's like so much, I, I love the descriptions of sidewalks that are sort of tortured because there's The, The, you know, the
Chris Bolhuis: the echelon faults and Yeah,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I, mean, it's totally amazing, right. So he, he paints a really good picture in this book, um, and, and sort of was inspired by the Loma Preta earthquake, which we were just talking about in our camp Geo textbook, we have a whole section on earthquake in our earthquakes chapter. You can go there geo.camp courses.com, and in our earthquakes chapter we talk about the Loma Prita earthquake. [00:02:00] We have a couple images we made about the Loma Prita earthquake, and that was kind of the inspiration for andrew's, sort of geoscience writing about Oakland.
Chris Bolhuis: I did let you get away with one. I was gonna rip on you, but it was right away at the beginning of the interview, and because you weren't even alive during the Loma period of earthquake in 1989, I mean, you, you weren't even a thought at that
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I was Chris, I was two. Just so we know I was two. Yeah, I, I, yeah, I'm an 80 Sevener man.
Chris Bolhuis: my gosh. Okay. You were alive.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: you just, calm down man. You know what I was gonna rip on you cuz [00:02:30] you were alive in 1868 the, last time the Hayward fault ruptured or whatever that he was talking about. So, so shut up over there.
Chris Bolhuis: okay. Okay. That, ah, score one for you. Um, wow, that's, that's pretty
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Zero. Here we go. one more thing about Andrew. He also has a blog which kind of inspired in many ways this book and it's oakland Geology dot com and I, I spend a lot of time on that blog. It's super interesting. He's got amazing photos. If you're ever [00:03:00] traveling to the Bay Area, I would recommend going to this thing and just searching out cool geoscience stuff cuz
Chris Bolhuis: Going to the blog, you
Dr. Jesse Reimink: The blog or the book, you know, in the book as well, cuz the book's kind of a, a bit of a more structured version of the blog maybe. But the blog's really informative. There's a lot of great pictures and It, you can kind of do a little tour, as you said, with Google Earth and the blog. So it, it's a really great resource. So I'd point people to that as well.
Chris Bolhuis: yeah, reading the book definitely made me want to go and, visit Oakland. I want to see it [00:03:30] through this lens. Uh,
just it was compelling. Yeah. All right. Well, hey, here we go. Deep Oakland. Andrew Alden coming your way.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: here we go.
Chris Bolhuis: All right, well, welcome Andrew. It is so nice to finally meet you. How are you doing today?
Andrew Alden: I'm having a great day so
Chris Bolhuis: Yeah, I bet you are. This is your release day. That's
right.
This is a big occasion.
Andrew Alden: Yeah, this is, the day the bookstores are actually authorized [00:04:00] to lay the copies out on the
shelves and in the, in the front windows.
I saw one of those. Took
a
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, that's awesome.
Andrew Alden: I had a autographing session this morning and they said, uh, they sold 25 copies this morning in one hour. I thought,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: we've interviewed several authors on Planet Geo, and this is the first time we've inter ever interviewed somebody on launch day. So that,
that's very exciting. I did notice on, your blog,
that you've been, uh, putting copies in, you said you've been putting copies in the little, uh, the little book, uh, what are they called? [00:04:30] The, the mini libraries and like the telephone booth, mini libraries and neighborhoods and stuff. It's just such a cool idea. I wanna ask you about that. But, uh, but Chris, you got our, like,
Chris Bolhuis: Yeah, I do. I do, I do. So Andrew, , Jesse and I each have this, I don't know, kind of involved story about how we discovered geoscience or, fell in love and, and it was this like moment where it just kind of smacked us across the face and said, this is the direction you're going. Um, very, like, very important times in our lives. [00:05:00] Did, did you have a moment like this where you, you knew, I'm going into Geology and I'm gonna follow this as far as I can go?
Andrew Alden: Well, I, I knew before I went to college I'd be a Geology major, simply because I've always had a fascination with landscape Uh, I've lived in interesting places. I'm basically a Californian, but I was raised in the east. I've lived in Maryland, I've lived in New Hampshire. I've lived in New York, down to New York City and went to school in New Hampshire. When I graduated [00:05:30] college with just a BA in Geology, you know, it's not much. Some people think you need to get a doctorate or a master's, and those are great things. You really don't need to, get a lot of satisfaction and even a career out of Geology. But anyway, after I graduated, I had this, uh, Job lined up in California with the US Geological Survey, and so I drove across country, me and my cat, and my little car all stuffed with stuff. And I went through Wyoming[00:06:00] and I went through Idaho and I went through Oregon I drove down through California. And that trip has just seared itself into my mind, you know, ever since that. You know, you have embarked on a really cool life
Chris Bolhuis: Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: a really good way to put it. and uh, chris, before Chris makes the joke, we both agree here. You don't need a PhD to have a degree. If you have a PhD, you're a little bit overeducated. Uh, speaking from somebody who has one of those, uh, degrees, um, that, it's an [00:06:30] interesting point. So how did You know, I, because I think it's kind of rare to go into college knowing that you want to be a geologist. So how did you know that, that because that, that's quite rare, like most people find it you know, in year three or two of college and they kind of, take the Earth science class and say, oh wow, this is cool. I don't wanna be an engineer pre-med or anything like that anymore. So, how, why did you know, but when you went in
Andrew Alden: for one thing, I was a boy scout and I got the Geology Merit badge. I I also got the oceanography merit badge. for a while I wanted to be an [00:07:00] oceanographer, and that's a perfectly good ambition, but it's a, really need an advanced degree to do that. But, But, meanwhile, I'm basically been a hilltop mountaintop kind of guy. I love climbing hills and looking around and just wondering about what I'm seeing, and so I've always, it just seemed natural. Now, my high school actually did have a Geology course. Well, I never took it.
Chris Bolhuis: Why? Why? Wait a minute,
Andrew Alden: didn't, didn't work out.
Chris Bolhuis: What does that mean? It didn't work out. [00:07:30] Andrew, come on. You're gonna have to,
Andrew Alden: well, I was taking, I was taking other advanced placement courses. I took advanced placement chemistry and physics and biology and so on. Never got around to Geology.
Chris Bolhuis: Huh,
Andrew Alden: So I, I, know it's, that is unusual, but, you know, high school Geology courses are unusual and I'm sure we can talk a lot about that.
Chris Bolhuis: Yeah. Yeah. They, they for surely are and so are the people that teach 'em. Very unusual people, you know.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: one of them. Um, I, I, I, it's really interesting [00:08:00] path. I mean that usually most people, uh, you know either have to take the class in, in high school or have to take a class to sort of understand that Geology is useful. So that's an interesting path. Uh, kind of a unique
Chris Bolhuis: That's a, Yeah, That's a really good. point, Jesse. Most people are in something else and they take a Geology class cuz they have to, and then they realize this is awesome. I'm changing directions. And Andrew, you just jumped right in. Um, Yeah. very different path.
Andrew Alden: Yeah. we really, really, and, and everybody in the profession [00:08:30] knows this, we really need more high school Geology because Geology is a, just the perfect stem discipline. It touches everything else. they say Mathematic physics is the king of sciences, and so on. They say it about mathematics, but. I think geology is the original science. maybe astronomy too. You know, because ever since we were wandering around on Savannah, we were aware of what rocks are good for, what soil is good for, what [00:09:00] water and landscape and so on are good for.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: absolutely. It's certainly not biology. Chris and I have a long standing, um, sort of animosity with biology, but, let's just level set why we're having this conversation. We alluded to it, um, about your book launch. The book is called Deep Oakland, how Geology Shaped a City. And, and I have both read this book. You can find it. Today, as of today in bookstores or if you're in Oakland area, you can find it in little libraries around the place, I suppose. But,
Andrew Alden: and the ebook is
out too
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Okay, excellent. so you know, this was a [00:09:30] really interesting for.
me, a really interesting, you know, the intersection between. Geology and, and, city infrastructure and, and human humanity really. there's something we often gloss over and I teach Intro to Geology, the big physical Geology class that's kind of the entrance into the field of geoscience for a lot of people, Give us a, how did this idea come about, um, And and you know, writing the book or, or maybe it started with your blog that you have as well. I'm not sure. Like, can you give us the, the sort of origin story of this topic?
Chris Bolhuis: [00:10:00] Andrew, before you answer this, I just want to clarify this because I think in Geology, all three of us, you know, we fixate on the rocks, we fixate on the scenery, and that's What we, that's the story we want to tell, right? But your story was way different and I really enjoyed that in the book. So that's what I'm interested in because how did this idea come about? Where I'm gonna tell both. It's just not, doesn't seem natural to geologists to do this.
Andrew Alden: [00:10:30] Well, I guess I'm, I'm not a conventional geologist. I'm, uh, as I say, I was a. Uh, a technical editor. A scientific editor. So I had to know the literature. I had to know how to talk to research scientist. It was like a graduate level education after I got my bachelor's degree. So for years, my first years I was kind of a book geologist. you know, I could talk a good game. I understood their [00:11:00] concepts. I could speak the language, but for a long time, um, I didn't look around me. And then I moved to Oakland and two weeks later, the Loma Preta earthquake happened. it just, it kind of jolted me awake. And then I looked around Oakland. Oakland is a beautiful city. I don't know if you've ever been there. A lot of people have been there without really realizing it, because if you could been to San Francisco, you look across the bay and you know, San Francisco is beautiful because it has a view [00:11:30] of Oakland.
Chris Bolhuis: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Alden: this, it's beautiful range of hills on the other side of the bay. Uh, and then it spreads out into this beautiful plane, this coastal plane. It's paved with homes and a nice downtown and so on. It's a beautiful city. and then I was lucky enough to have available, uh, and all of us do because it's a publicly available geologic map of the, uh, Northern East Bay, including the Oakland [00:12:00] area. And so I downloaded that it came out in the year 2000. And started looking at it, and it was a crazy quilt of rock units. Plus the Hayward fault runs right down the middle of it runs right through oakland
Chris Bolhuis: C for our listeners, can you describe what the Hayward fault
is,
Andrew Alden: Oh, the Hayward Fault is the San Andreas's faults sister. you know, the, the two faults are part of several. they span about 60, [00:12:30] 80 miles from east to west, and they define the edge between the north America plate and the Pacific plate. So the Hayward fault is the same kind of fault that the San Andreas is. It last ruptured at the ground in 1868 when Oakland was just a little village by the Bay. and it hasn't ruptured since. and when we look at its history, it erupts, an [00:13:00] average of every 150 years, plus or minus, like 60 years. So it's not a, uh, steady drumbeat. It's got a terrible rhythm, there's always
an next beat. And so at some point, you know, geologists know this. and we live with it. I live with it every day.
Uh, I log on every morning. One of the first things I check on my browser is the s g s earthquake server, and I just look at California and there's [00:13:30] little dots
all over it to
Chris Bolhuis: so
Andrew, what is the capability of
the Hayward Fault?
Andrew Alden: it could, Relieve itself in a magnitude seven earthquake. Now that's not quite as big as the one in 1906 in San Francisco because it's not as long a fault. It doesn't have as much rock surface to store energy and release in it. But seven is just it bad enough. we, we talk about the big one when we talk about San Francisco in 1906 and. Southern [00:14:00] California in 8 18, 57 and so on. the Oakland upcoming Oakland earthquake, I caught the great earthquake of 20 X X x. It will be not the big one. It'll be the big enough one. it'll be bad because Oakland and the whole East Bay grew o over the fall without really knowing it was there. we're on now. The Santa Andreas fault doesn't run through San Francisco. It runs offshore. you know, there was no sign of it when they built San [00:14:30] Francisco It was an accident of history Oakland grew over the fault before we even realized what was there and what it meant. But we didn't even know that until the fifties. So we are, we are poised for something awful. And one of the missions, one of the big messages in my book is we need to, get to know where we are. Because where we are is who we are. The city will be defined, Many years from now by how it handles that inevitable earthquake and [00:15:00] how we prepare for it beforehand.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: yeah, that, I mean, it's a really sort of, I guess this intersection is really an interesting, point to, to look at. And there's obviously the earthquake part, uh, which you've just touched on beautifully. there's also the, the sort of broader Geology, and I think you describe it in the, maybe the prologue. As you know, when you open up the, your eyes to the world around you and to the Geology around you, you, you really get a deeper experience of the place you're in. So, The feedback between your blog posts that you've written for, it looks like quite some time. and this [00:15:30] book, like, how did you come about to the idea of, oh actually I have to write a book about this. I mean, it, it looks like, can you kind of give us the framing for like, the motivation for writing a book and this interaction between the blog? Cuz it, it, sometimes it it seems, That seems like maybe the opposite direction. I, I would expect to go,
Andrew Alden: Yeah, well it all, began in 1997. this was in the early days of the worldwide web when this outfit, they called themselves mining code.com. They said, we're going to start US [00:16:00] website and we're gonna hire hundreds of writers, and each one of 'em will be a specialist they'll build this educational site in their specialty. And I said, you know, this sounds like a real cool opportunity. And so I signed up to be their Geology guide. I was one of the founding members of Mining Co. And, and then it became about.com.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: really? Oh,
Andrew Alden: And, um, today. It is now Thought co.com. And it's changed a great deal over the [00:16:30] years. It changed a whole lot, but I spent 17 years there writing hundreds, probably thousands of different little items and, and that was, you know, I talk about working at the US GS as a technical editor. That's one kind of education. And the other kind of education is what I did for those 17 years, starting in 1997. And in 2007 I was going. You know, I, I, I'm looking around, I need to start a [00:17:00] blog too, because there's all the stuff I wanna write about Oakland that isn't important enough for the rest of the world. And my very first post was a picture of, um, a road cut up in the hills where it's all serpentine, all serpentine rock, and it's slippery stuff and it's falling down. And there was all this, you know, wreckage in the road and a brand new house is rising right on that land. And I said, You know, the people in Oakland need to know what, what's around them. So that was 2007 and I just did it for a [00:17:30] while, having fun. Eventually I started doing a regular thing once a week and I thought at some point, if, you blog enough you can build a book. You know, just take all the posts and pour them in a, pour them into a big file and turn it into a book. it doesn't
work
that
way.
Chris Bolhuis: Can I interrupt you a minute?
Andrew Alden: Yeah.
Chris Bolhuis: Um, you, you talked about Serpentine, , Jesse and I absolutely love Serpentine. Uh, we've collected some on the, on the eastern part of the United States before, but what is [00:18:00] it and what's the significance to your point in terms of, you know, Oakland?
Andrew Alden: there's a lot to say about serpentine serpentine. Uh, is California State Rock? uh, it, it what it is, it's a metamorphic rock. It's a metamorphic rock. It's what happens to the, basaltic lava that, that the kind of rock that the ocean crust is made of. And it's what happens to that rock when it, uh, is [00:18:30] subjected to boiling hot sea water. Deep down , underneath the earth crust, under the ocean, it alters all the minerals into these hydrated magnesium silicates. And they're very slippery minerals. They, change color from black greenish, uh, a bluish, and they're these slippery fibers, minerals. But it also is important for the, for the earthquake faults in [00:19:00] California. It, it, appears along many of them and it seems to act as a lubricant. And another thing it's important for in California history is, the mother load up in the Sierra Nevada foothills, which, hold all of the gold that launched the gold rush, the gold mines up there, there that you look for serpentine when you're prospecting for gold. So it's a, a rich part of California history and it's just a neat thing to look at wherever you are. Um, I, I know you don't have [00:19:30] any in Michigan. I know you have some in pennsylvania
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh yeah, we've got a, we got a lot of, uh, these sort of serpentine, um, well, serpentinite and, and various ultra meic and mima
Andrew Alden: Yeah, and, and it's neat, neat biology too. You.
Chris Bolhuis: Well, there's no such thing, Andrew. Um, it's neat biology. Jesse, wait a minute. You've been holding out on me. Where's the serpentine at?
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Uh, it's kind of where I'm at right now in the southeast side of Pennsylvania. There's some, uh, ultra meic lenses and nodules [00:20:00] that are kind of crop up, and there's, there's, little bit of debate about whether there's actually pieces of the mantle, part of the oceanic crust, but there's definitely oceanic crusts, slivers of it caught up in the the the sort Of higher grade terrains to the east of, well, Southeast pennsylvania and eastern Pennsylvania here. So, yeah, it, it it's
pretty. Yeah. Yeah,
Chris Bolhuis: It's, it's pretty. So why have I not known about this? Like, you.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Well, you haven't been invited to visit me in Pennsylvania yet, I [00:20:30] dunno. That's exactly right. Uh, So Andrew, I wanna go back to the book. So, okay, you got a blog, you got all these blog posts, um, you know, you got 'em in a folder somewhere and you're thinking, okay, I'm gonna put 'em into a book. But, uh, it's, lo and behold, it's not as easy as that. So
Andrew Alden: Yeah, that didn't, that didn't work. So I started, so, so I started over. I said, I realized you're gonna have to. Write a whole book. And so I did it my way. I thought, oh, the kind of book I wanna read, which is, it turned out to be a very nice manual for Geolog advisors, for people who wanted,[00:21:00] who learn about the different kinds of rocks and the, uh, and so it, it really did get into rocks at that point.
And um, that's why I kind of finished it up and then I. Looked around for a possible publisher and, and they looked at it and said, um, how about you write something else that goes, that, that goes into these other
themes that you keep bringing in about how history and geologic history
[00:21:30] interact. And I thought, oh, that sounds sweet. I'm gonna do that. So I put the old one
down, which is still, still publishable. And, uh, wrote the new one. Took a couple years and That was,
uh,
Chris Bolhuis: All right. That was, that's interesting. That was one of the things I
wanted to know is how
long this process Took But, Andrew, I look, the thing That I really, really liked about the
book was the way that you weaved in the humanity to it. And so can you
just share one
of [00:22:00] your favorite examples of how Oakland humanity and Geology intersected?
Like pick one of your favorite intersections here. That's a hard question.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah.
Andrew Alden: Well, there, there are several. But, um, I think one neat thing is I learned, I had really no idea, is that, the place Oakland was founded on, you know, when the first, Americans showed up in this, Former Mexican territory that, that
[00:22:30] the United States won from Mexico in 1848. couple of guys rode over
across the bay from San Francisco in 1850 and said to themselves, this is kind of cool, this, this site.
It's not like every place else in the East Bay. Bay, there's, there's some rocky places and there's some swampy places, but this is different. It's got a, this shelf here. we could actually start a town here. We could, uh, start a [00:23:00] harbor here.
You we could build our own city.
It wouldn't have to be San Francisco, wouldn't have drunk, staggering around. And, uh,
the uproar,
you know,
we could have. Wealthy people like ourselves could
have this nice place over here. But anyway, that shelf they saw
is actually
the, same kind of sand dune that, also covers most of San Francisco.
San Francisco is lousy place for a city. The only thing it's good for [00:23:30] is the seaport
because the, there's, the soil is poor, it's windy, it's foggy.
Uh, there are no trees there, there, there, there.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: And the
and the view of Oakland as well. Right? That's what El El San Francisco is good for.
Andrew Alden: Yeah. Yeah, there it was. The Contra Costa, the opposite coast. They called it the Contra Costa range. And, um, was good soil over here and, uh, like I say, it had this, uh, shelf, it was covered with oak trees. It was a beautiful grove of mature oak trees.[00:24:00] That the local tribes, the, the alone Indians had been tending for thousands of years. You know, as they say, since the beginning of time they had, tended it for a corns. They would set fire , to the underbrush every now and then to clean it up and so on. And so it looked beautiful to these Americans. But it's actually a sand dune from the height of the last ice age. And, when you think about [00:24:30] what the Bay Area was like at the height of the last ice age, it was totally different. This is 20,000 years ago. The ocean was 400 feet lower. At the time there was no San Francisco Bay at all. It was a valley, it was a valley of all this freshly exposed glacial sand. From, uh, Sierra Nevada and the ice age winds were even stronger than the, than the fog that you feel in San Francisco today. And it blew sand all the way over here and, [00:25:00] and built up this big bed of it 60 feet thick. that was cool to learn that I did not know that before I launched into this project. And, and wherever you dig in it, there isn't a single pebble in it.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Really pure sand.
Andrew Alden: You know, this is not, like the glacial out wash you have in michigan or New England where I went to school. this is, it's pure sand. It's like, uh, hourglass sand. and whenever you see a building, you know, downtown, they dig into it. I'd [00:25:30] go, whoa, I just wanna put my fingers on it.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: so I, I want to touch on one other, another aspect of your book that I really enjoyed was sort of your descriptions of your, your walks around Oakland, which I have a, a couple, a two-parter here if you'll allow me a two-part question. So, when you go on these walks, uh, you know, even today, presumably you still sort of do these, um, What do you take with you, I guess, to experience them And then a lot of our listeners are not from Oakland and probably won't be able to experience, you know, the full fullness of, this thing. I mean, they [00:26:00] should definitely buy the book cause it's a great read, but they won't be able to experience everything. So if somebody, you know, came to Oakland and said, I, Andrew, I want to go on one of your Geology walks and theologize with you, one are you gonna take 'em on? Again, a tough question.
Andrew Alden: I do wanna take exception to your premise that, really enjoy oakland unless you be there. You can do it in Google maps.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Uh, it's a great point. It's a great point. Yep.
Andrew Alden: can you can visit anywhere in the world in Google maps, you know, you can even theologize in google Maps. it's a [00:26:30] reader from outside town, you know, I, I name, I name streets, I name places you can show up and, you know, in Google.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: That's true. That that,
Andrew Alden: So,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: a fair point.
Andrew Alden: no. What I do, I do a lot of solo walks. Uh, just get out. To move my legs to, to revisit sites and so on. And what I carry with me, I don't carry a rock hammer. I used to at first and then I realized, you know, one, one, you don't need to do it cuz you're not doing research. And, two, you don't need it because the [00:27:00] rocks are just beautiful by themselves. I wanna leave them alone. And so what I take with me is I still have my acid bottle. you all keep a little bottle of little hydrochloric acid,
Chris Bolhuis: of course. Every, every self-respecting geologist has a little bottle of H C L with him.
Andrew Alden: I do that. I've got a little hand lens.
I've got, my phone, my camera,
and I've got a little umpire
brush that you use. You know the one you see them brushing whole
plate. I used that for cleaning out
[00:27:30] crops. Wanted to get a good look at 'em and
to take pictures and everybody should have all those
things.
You don't really need the acid bottle, but I just have not been able to, to leave it behind. It's such a neat little
Chris Bolhuis: So, Andrew, are you wearing your, hand lens around your neck? You know, do You have a little shoestring that you,
Andrew Alden: I I have a lanyard, but it's, it's inside my, bag, so I don't wear it yeah, I don't use it that often, you know, cuz I know what I'm looking at by now.
maybe for building stones, I, I pull it out, look at it[00:28:00]
Chris Bolhuis: Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's true. That's true. I do that all the time. When I'm in any big city like Chicago, I do the same thing. Andrew, so I was struck with an idea, um, you're familiar of course, with the series, roadside Geology or, you know, geology Underfoot. this book made me really think of that because I couldn't help think about my city, grand Rapids or Detroit or really every major city in the US or anywhere for that [00:28:30] matter, and how Geology.
Played a role in why that city's there And you know, this city's personality. and first of all I, I think that, that it's. a great idea. This should happen.
now I want to know, I want to know more about my city, but I want somebody else to do that.
for me so I can just read it You know, I don't, I don't have,
I'm lazy.
I don't have five years of my life to devote to writing a book to this at, you know, on this subject, at this time.
But, um, so one, I think that's [00:29:00] a great idea and I, think you need to figure, like, figure out an angle in this, Andrew, because you're the first one that's done something like this, at least that I'm, aware of.
Andrew Alden: uh, And the first that I'm aware of
too, although there's
some, yeah, any
city. Any city large
enough to
support, uh, uh, you know enough readers for
a publisher to be,
interested. Could do this, you know, Seattle, there's a, there's a writer in Seattle, uh, David B. Williams, who's very good in Geology, but he's also into [00:29:30] biology
Chris Bolhuis: oh.
okay.
Andrew Alden: and, uh, and human history And everything else. so he's all, he, he covers all of
nature. I, don't, I focus on Geology. Someone could do it for San Francisco, someone could do it for Los Angeles and Chicago. Uh, in fact, there is a uh, I just heard today from a,
uh, Emeritus
professor who's, working on a Geo heritage book for Chicago and, and it's got the makings of it.
you know, before
this interview,
I actually went on Google Maps[00:30:00] and took a
look around Hudsonville
Michigan.
Chris Bolhuis: okay. I.
want your
Andrew Alden: And you've got stuff there. You've got
stuff there in, in Hudsonville. If I'm not, if I'm not mistaken, you've
got a, uh, a lost ice age course of the Grand River going through
Chris Bolhuis: yeah. Oh, for sure. So Hudsonville
has,
Hudsonville has the, the old Glacial Grand River, that, which when the river shifted course, that quickly turned into some of the best soil on the [00:30:30] planet that we call Muck.
Yeah, it's amazing. You can grow anything on that stuff. That's
really, wow. I'm I'm impressed.
I,
I am.
Very
Andrew Alden: it's obvious from the,
air, you know, knowing what, we, we know about Michigan. You can
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I, I, I, having
grown up in Michigan, I will say, the Geology in the Bay Area is exceptional. I mean, you have
world-class Geology everywhere there, so I must say, I, I, you know, grand Rapids
Would be an okay
read probably, but I think We, should not downplay the, quality [00:31:00] of Geology
that's in the Bay area, though.
I mean, it's
world class Geology. let's let's just leave it at that. And you you cover it very well in your book, so I, I just, I need to
make that point
that,
Andrew Alden: Mm-hmm. Grand Rapids could have a nice
pamphlet.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: we go. There we go.
Andrew Alden: you, know? it's a, it's a,
nice, a
nice pamphlet. It's got, it's got the rapids themselves because it's
a, um, major lithologic transition in the Michigan
Chris Bolhuis: Yeah, but then we decided to dam it and so now we don't have any
rapids running through Grand Rapids. But there,
Andrew Alden: There, there, yeah.
There, [00:31:30] there must. Yeah. And there, and besides their, their localities, to the side, to either side
Chris Bolhuis: okay. Like what? I'm really curious about
this, the, yeah.
Andrew Alden: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Chris Bolhuis: And, so what did you think of all the lakes? Cuz you don't have
that in Oakland.
were you impressed by our lakes?
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh
gosh. We cannot dive down this rabbit
hole. Chris is
Andrew Alden: Oh yeah. It's
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Chris is gonna start banging out about how great Michigan again is again, I, I just, we
can't
go too deep down in this rabbit hole, guys. I'm sorry.
We are gonna have to
pull us
Andrew Alden: it. It's not, it's not quite, yeah, it's not quite up to [00:32:00] Minnesota, but
it's definitely up
Chris Bolhuis: Oh my gosh. Oh, all right. Well this interview is over now, Andrew. Um, Wow.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Alright, Chris,
you're done. I think it's a good point that like, we don't, and I've, um, thought about this since
reading your book a bit and, and reading the, your blog about
how to integrate this style of thinking a little bit more into the introductory geoscience education because, you know, we're at a point where Geology, in geoscience is more important than it may be as ever.
Been at least a [00:32:30] basic understanding, of how our planet operates. And, I think. we,
don't do a great job, and there's always room for improvement in the sort of communication aspect of. how important this stuff is. So books like yours are really great for pointing out. that even in just one, It's not a small city, but in one location, there's all this interaction.
The, the geoscience has controlled a lot of the, the kind of human development and human history of the area, which is really great. So real quick, can you summarize the [00:33:00] geologic history? Of Oakland. I know this is gonna be difficult and now we're not
asking you to regurgitate the book here because like that, would be, that's it's too much.
There's so much. but like, I don't, or maybe not in the history of it but just like, what are some things, what are your favorite chapters in the book Or, or cuz you kind of organized the book.
by, Geology
of specific parts of Oakland, um,
Chris Bolhuis: This is kind of like asking you to real quick, summarize, radiometric dating
Jesse. I mean,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Task for sure.
for sure.
So
Chris Bolhuis: and, yeah.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: in for four hours here. This is, a long
Andrew Alden: Yeah,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: [00:33:30] listener,
but
Andrew Alden: yeah, Tell us how the continents formed, you know, you know,
Which, you know, that, that's that's your line of, of research and it's and it's a really important one.
It's a, real cutting edge stuff. I
love that. I love reading about it. But, you know, when I moved to California, when I came west and or I moved back to California the seventies, it took a lot of time to travel all over the state And then saw
It's a very active. State, California
is the mountains rising and [00:34:00] earthquakes happening,
and plates moving, and I realized that
almost all of it has examples and traces here in one place or,
another within the city of Oakland from, you know, young volcanoes to ancient subduction zones. so
how did Oakland, this one little corner.
That's got everything that California has. How did it form? Well,
California formed the same way. It used to be a big old subduction zone, just
like along the [00:34:30] coast of Indonesia,
Java, and Sumatra, just like that only with a,
with a continent behind it. really isn't a a good example in the world
today. Of how it was, well, maybe in South America, it was kind of like South America today for a very long time. An unusually long time for subduction zones. And then
everything changed and it got ripped apart sideways,
which was
lucky for geologist because it broke it all apart,
uh, into pieces and arranged them [00:35:00] all on. the surface
where we could study
them and kind of Fit it all together at, at depth and on the surface.
and from the Oceanic side to the continental side.
So two things, the, the subduction zone, two, breaking it
up, and that's how the coast range got wrinkled
up, like, onto the edge of a bed
sheet. And then, uh, later on we have the ice age cycles, which are so important everywhere in the United States.
And it was fun for me to realize [00:35:30] how important it was, even in this, uh, uh, active place of California, you think, you think it would erase all that stuff,
but it was all superimposed on
it.
that's The, history of Oakland in three episodes, subduction.
transparent disruption and then glacial up And down
cycles.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: it, I mean, it, the, the Geology there just cannot be overstated really. It's so cool. It's an amazing, um, bit of rock that tells this amazing history of [00:36:00] really complicated tectonic forces.
So,
uh, very good.
Chris Bolhuis: yeah.
Andrew Alden: it, it it was just so rare to find it all in one City and that's why I realized I made the boast of, I first realized it about 10 years ago. I said Oakland, it. has more. Rock types in it. You know, if you wanted to build a collection of shale and sandstone and siltstone and dolomite and church and so on, you could build a bigger collection within
the city of Oakland than you could anywhere else in the
[00:36:30] United States.
what I think, and no one has
proven me
wrong yet.
Chris Bolhuis: So, alright, Andrew, a little off topic then, outside of Oakland, is your favorite place in California then?
Andrew Alden: there are so many, you know, death Valley,
Chris Bolhuis: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Alden: Yosemite,
Lassen, and
Shasta.
Chris Bolhuis: that's that's where I was the
leading question cuz
that's really
what,
Andrew Alden: Yeah, it is a leading, the, the Great
Beach is Point Ray is north of San Francisco, the [00:37:00] Antelope Valley.
Um,
Chris Bolhuis: Valley? I don't think I've
Andrew Alden: uh, the Antelope Valley is just north of Los Angeles. You go through
the,
through the hills, and it's the western edge of the Mojave Desert. It's
the Western Point, the Mojave Desert. and I love it because it right now, this time of year, it's
entire
valley is paved with
California
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, beautiful. And is the epic poppy bloom going on
Andrew Alden: Yeah,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: because of all the rain? Is that
Andrew Alden: yeah, yeah. and, and I love driving I [00:37:30] five through the Central Valley because you can see mountains all
Chris Bolhuis: Yeah.
Andrew Alden: you look away from
Chris Bolhuis: Yes, Yes, that's right. That's right. Yeah, I, I've spent a lot of time in California. I do love the state. think I prefer the northern part of California. you touched on, you know, Shasta and, and Lassen and those areas. Um, they're just, it's. Ah, it's a, it's a beautiful, beautiful state.
I'll give you that. Um, not taking away anything from Michigan or Hudsonville, but it's a beautiful state.[00:38:00]
Andrew Alden: Well, well, like I say, hu Hudsonville has got that abandoned river
Chris Bolhuis: Yeah.
Andrew Alden: you know, and that's a
really cool
Chris Bolhuis: is, it is. It's, you know, Andrew, the thing is, is, and you're right, it is a really cool thing. you know, Hudsonville is called the salad bowl city because we can grow anything here. But I don't think a lot of Hudsonville people realize that. That's why we have the muck.
and that's really the takeaway with your book. I think that the people of Oakland are [00:38:30] particularly going to love this book. I know I would, I know I'm a little biased. I loved it. I've only spent, you know, a little bit of time in Oakland. I to, I'm, I know this is gonna offend you, but I, tend to spend more time in San Francisco.
I don't know why, but this makes me want to go to Oakland. Honestly. It does. It makes me wanna walk the city. I want to see the things that you talked about,
Andrew Alden: well, I want, I do want visitors to do that, and I do want people in Oakland to discover it for themselves. And, you know, you read this book and, and you can tell [00:39:00] it's written for local people. I don't explain a lot for outsiders. I do that in the beginning. I just, when I talk about Telegraph Avenue or whatever, people here know where that
is. you know, like I say, the book doesn't have to have everything between its covers nowadays. people can look
up stuff, they can go on Google Maps. I don't need to explain all of Geology. I don't need to explain limestone. Thank goodness. I don't need to talk about [00:39:30] Reimink. I
don't need to
Chris Bolhuis: Jesse.
He
Dr. Jesse Reimink: it's,
Chris Bolhuis: on
Precambrian.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: no, it's true. It's true. He doesn't need to,
doesn't need to cover it.
Chris Bolhuis: Um, Andrew, so to, to your point, I spent a lot of time actually looking things up because I wanted to, I felt the need as I'm reading it to get my bearings of the city. So I did actually spend a lot of time on, Google Maps looking around. Um, you know, I wanted to understand lake Barrett
Andrew Alden: is a virtue of this book. It, I want [00:40:00] my readers to be
curious. I'm not trying to lay it
all out for them cuz
that's too
Dr. Jesse Reimink: it, it it's way, It's way too much. So, Andrew, I, and I, forgive me if I missed this. I wasn't actually, I'm just thinking of this now. your comment about how the diversity of rock types that you have within Oakland City limits, is there elote in any of these like knockers that are there. I, I love Ejet. It might be
the single, like most important rock type. So this is a
leading question. Is there Ejet? either yes or no, I don't care. But what is your favorite rock [00:40:30] that is in
Chris Bolhuis: You're a funny guy, Jesse.
Andrew Alden: there is elote in little high grade blocks up in, uh, Joaquin Miller Park in the, it's mainly a serpentine zone, but there are hard grade blocks. It's got your classic Garnet, Glock ofe,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: so it's, they're in these knockers that are coming up in the Milan kind of, uh, kind of area in the
Chris Bolhuis: Okay. Hold on. Hold on. Jesse, listen. You, you have to, okay. Define why you're asking about Elote, please. And [00:41:00] what the hell is a knocker? you just went through a bunch of words that you need to define
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Well, Chris, well, okay, Elott first, we talked about this last week, Chris. We talked about slab pole as a plate tectonic mechanism, EJET being this dense anchor.
So that's why I'm, I like Eglite for the physical perspective. But Eglite is also a really beautiful rock, you know, Bright
green Buick scene and deep red garnet. Really, really beautiful rock. Christmas tree rock. And then knocker is the other thing. And knocker, they're these big, they're just basically big blocks of a [00:41:30] variety of stuff that's caught up when, the subduction zone system kind of the, this thrusting like can kind of have stuff that's from deep down in subduction zone system make its way up to the surface in this, what we call Milan system.
And you get big blocks of chit and big blocks of blue shift and elote and all sorts of crap kind of caught up in this mess. and it's. All the, the sort of ground mass of the rock, well, it's ground mass of the region, I guess is all kind of sheared and lots of serpentine [00:42:00] and all sorts of random mics and stuff like that.
And these big knockers that are caught up in it as well. So they're called knockers cuz, and you have some great photos on your blog, Andrew, of these sort of big boulders kind of caught up in the landscape. I think there's one of a golf course that I saw that looked really, really cool. It's a beautiful picture of a knocker.
I, forgive me if I'm not remembering that correctly, but,
Andrew Alden: Yeah. They're, too small to map, but they're too big
to ignore
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, that's Well
Chris Bolhuis: Well put,
well put.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Okay. And then your
Chris Bolhuis: Okay.
Andrew Alden: and on a
call.
Chris Bolhuis: Favorite rock.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: [00:42:30] We're asking you a lot of these hard favorite questions
right now. I don't
Chris Bolhuis: He just,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: on this train, but
Chris Bolhuis: He just.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I.
Andrew Alden: Well, I,
I think it would have to be, you know, the, the ones I keep on my bookshelf are, I have some hunks of serpentine and I have some hunks of Tite that I got up on the Klamath Mountains. We did, we actually have Tite in Oakland too.
but, but Pide is the original rock. That's the original stuff and that's the stuff that [00:43:00] turns into serpentine.
so I have some of that too. I, I also have a piece of, uh, volcanic, tuff that I got up on the Sierra. these are rocks I collected from outside town. Uh, I don't keep any, I don't keep a lot of rocks from Oakland. I try and I've tried and
put them
Chris Bolhuis: I, I, you know, I
appreciate that, uh, yeah, that that, came across in your book. Um, in fact, one of your professors had a big influence on you. I can't remember exactly the quote, but, it had to do with collecting rocks, uh, [00:43:30] especially invisible areas.
Andrew Alden: Yeah, it was a field trip, you know, up in the smart field complex and which is another subduction complex, much older, he, he told us all, you know, this is really important. It's an unusual location. This locality, this road cut. And I went up, I was just gonna, I have my, my umpires brush with me and I was gonna brush off the rocks.
And he said, you know, please, please leave it alone. You know, I take, classes of students here every year. We, we come here all the time. And you know, if everybody [00:44:00] did what you're doing, it would just be wiped out
eventually. I think he was exaggerating. But you know, there is a kind of cowboy, amateur geologist, a young geologist, a student geologist, they want to hit everything with a hammer,
you know?
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I know?
for sure.
Andrew Alden: And
you you just can't do that. You know? You have to grow up
make, make do with what you have. Unless you have a really serious professional interest in rocks, you should not be hammering them.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I mean, I know what you're saying When we, uh,
In all of our field trips that we [00:44:30] run. And I'm sure, Chris, you do the same. A actually we haven't talked about this, but we have to be very careful about which, uh, outros we actually take, you know, a whole slew of a couple hundred undergrads too over a week.
And because yes, there's a lot of just random bashing for no
real reason.
Andrew Alden: I, I remember the kid I used to be, you
know,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: mean we all sort of used to be
Andrew Alden: That's what we used to do. You go around on, go around on your bike and you know, and if you have a hammer, you use it on
everything. You go, wow, what's that look like?
Chris Bolhuis: Speaking of which, Jesse?
do you remember the [00:45:00] pill of assaults that I took you guys to? Behind Menards? In Marquette.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: yeah. Famously behind Menards. Yep. Hammers
Chris Bolhuis: V.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: in the bus is the rule. Right?
Chris Bolhuis: They are gone. They're gone. Menards wanted to expand their outdoor lumber yard and they dynamite away these gorgeous, uh,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: man.
Chris Bolhuis: assaults. It
just, uh,
such a shame.
Yeah.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: bummer. What a bummer. Yeah. Well, we had to leave our hammers in the bus on crystal. He's
trip for that outcrop for sure. And, uh, you know, we, we do a, a big we just go to a highway outcrop [00:45:30] that's full of. Nonsense limestone, in my opinion. It does have some bentonites in it, but you know, students can just hammer away at it.
It's like, whatever, no big deal. but we have to be very specific about, you know, not taking them to just around the bend where there's actually something really interesting there. put the hammers of bus and then we walk over there after they've had their fill of hammering on the rocks.
That, that, uh, don't matter so much. well Andrew, uh, we really are appreciative of your time and it was really great reading your book and, I'm really appreciative of you kind of joining us on Planet Geo here. [00:46:00] And you, we'll put a link to, uh, in the show notes to where people can, can find this book.
but we always close our interviews with one sort of final question, which is, what has been your best day as a, a geoscientist or, uh, as an author, in your case?
Andrew Alden: I think my best moment as a scientist. Was, when I figured out why there's a big water gap in Oakland. We have a water
gap in Oakland too. That's, you know, that's
a classic of
Pennsylvania. You think, oh, oh, the Appalachians water gaps. We've got a [00:46:30] great example in Oakland I realized, it's not a textbook one.
So someone had to come up with a creative story to explain it. And when I realized that it took a long time to put together that, that was a sweet moment. I work up to it in the book, you know, it's, it's kind of animates. It's a really key piece of evidence and a cool thing
in
chapter six.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: No, that, that's cool. So when was that realization? Was this during the writing of the book or during, in your blogging days or,[00:47:00]
Andrew Alden: It was right at the beginning,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: okay,
Andrew Alden: you know, write, writing a book really forces you
to think things through and so I thought it through in really good detail at that time. and, and next month I'm gonna give a talk to my local geological society. And if any of them wants to shoot me down, then you know, they, they're free to try.
But I think, but I think it's a very good
hypothesis. And that's
All you know, you know, this Geology is a lot of hypotheses. a lot of 'em are just [00:47:30] stories and that's how they start. And so that's my hypothesis
So it'll take some graduate student to
figure it out in the future if
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah, no, that's you, you know, that it's, it's Geology is a lot of stories. I mean, we have these, these conversations as well about, you know, what's the value of a geoscience degree, you know, to, to students and stuff. And actually it's quite broad value because of this really.
Crazy, three-dimensional, four-dimensional thinking that we train students on. You have to visualize stuff in three dimensions in [00:48:00] space, and then moving over time, but not just any time over millions and billions of years. Like it's a really creative, and actually becoming quite a data rich science. So, it's a really unique style of thinking that Geology requires and that that's a great one.
That's a really good, uh, best day. Where, where, do you remember where you were sitting when you're like, oh, The light bulb goes off and, oh wait, this might be it. Uh, I need to pursue this idea. Do, do, do you have that sort of emblazoned in your memory?
Andrew Alden: No, I was probably just sitting right here at my keyboard.
Chris Bolhuis: Just putting it [00:48:30] together.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: That's
awesome.
Chris Bolhuis: Yeah.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: a, that's a great day.
Chris Bolhuis: Well, Andrew, thank you so much again. The book is called Deep Oakland, how Geology Shaped a City. It's a just a great read, highly recommended.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Andrew, for your time. Really appreciate it. Thanks for joining us on Planet Geo. It's been pleasure.
Andrew Alden: Anytime. Anytime. It'll maybe I'll run into you. I'm, I'm hoping to attend GSA in
Pittsburgh
and, and Jesse, I'll bet you'll be there. I don't know about you, Chris, but it'll be neat to
Dr. Jesse Reimink: absolutely. Yeah, definitely. Um, I definitely [00:49:00] reach out. We'll have a whole slew of Penn State people. As you know, it's home turf, so all the students in undergrads, and I think my whole research group is keen on going. So they're
Yeah.
We'll, I'll definitely be there shepherding students around, I'm sure.
Chris Bolhuis: Cool.
Andrew Alden: if, you're at AGU in December, I'll definitely be there. I've been at, been attending AGU since
Dr. Jesse Reimink: nice. Yeah, that's, I, I, am, uh, excited that it's back in San Francisco. I guess the, the sort of Moscone Center is back up in, uh, in, in operating. So yeah, I don't know if, I'm not sure what my, uh, my schedules will be, [00:49:30] but at, at one of the coming up Agus one of these years. We'll, we'll meet up, if not at GSA, in, in Pittsburgh.
That'd be great. Great. Uh, thanks again, Andrew. This
Andrew Alden: let's try.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: and we'll see you in
Pittsburgh. hey, that's a wrap. Thanks for listening. You can find all of our past episodes, transcripts. You can subscribe, you can support us. We always appreciate that at our website, planet geo cast.com.
send us an email, planet Geo cast@gmail.com. We are continuing to put together Office Hours [00:50:00] episodes here, answering your questions and building episodes off of suggestions that you've sent us. So keep that up. If you wanna learn all the basics of geoscience. Chris.
We've put together what we're calling a conversational Geology textbook, geo.camp courses.com, the first link in your show notes. Go to that. Got some cool images. we're gonna actually be updating the web app pretty soon and sort of making the interface a little bit more functional.
So we're excited for that. Go check it out and let us know what you think.
Chris Bolhuis: Cheers.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Peace.[00:50:30]
